Random Thoughts.....

RatLabGuy said:
Oh, they'll help their brother... but only their brother.
The reason governemt (state, local, whatever) acts as a middle man is to ensure that charity happens on a (ahem, more or less) equitable scale, instead of certain classes only helping themselves and others just falling to the wayside and causing more angst for the others in the process.
Keep in mind most "charities" are already state subsidized to begin with
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Yea, this is true in the short term. "We" have accepted that the government will take care of the downtrodden. That's what they want....each new person they get on the payroll is just a bit more total control they get.

This goes hand in hand with importing millions of no skill no education people every year.
This goes hand in hand with supporting one parent families. Why should you get a tax refund for having a child? I don't have children but I have bills to pay too. Why are they playing favorites? Don't they realize who is having kids on a large scale for tax benefits and/or citizenship grants? Of course they do. They know what they are doing.
And migrating from free lunch to free breakfast
Get them hooked early.

It was proven in 2020 that we don't need PE and art classes and music classes to get kids an education, at least the parts that will help them get a job and be a valuable member of society. Hobbies can be hobbies. 99.9% of us aren't getting a job playing the trumpet.

IF the government didn't take my tax dollars and give it to someone else, on a grand scale, I could and would help friends/family/neighbors. Will people fall through the cracks still? Yep....as they do now.

If we have to look after each other with our direct time and money, we would, for the most part, encourage the people around us to shape up and do right, otherwise the hard working friends and neighbors might not want to help us if we hit a life speed bump. The 'golden rule' and all that. There is your rising tide. Taking my hard earned money and giving it to deadbeats drags us all down.
 
RatLabGuy said:
Think about the weight distribution though. When that washer is full of water it is HEAVY, and getting thrown around. If you had it up top you'd have to have a bunch of counterweight on the bottom to keep the thing safe.
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Hey, I'm an idea man.

I'm just saying a dishwasher washes and dries dishes...I know those are sort of apples and oranges, but there has to be a solution.
 
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Cherokeekid88 said:
Hey, I'm an idea man.

I'm just saying a dishwasher washes and dries dishes...I know those are sort of apples and oranges, but there has to be a solution.
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So why not just toss your clothes in the dishwasher?
 
benXJ said:
Yea, this is true in the short term. "We" have accepted that the government will take care of the downtrodden. That's what they want....each new person they get on the payroll is just a bit more total control they get.

This goes hand in hand with importing millions of no skill no education people every year.
This goes hand in hand with supporting one parent families. Why should you get a tax refund for having a child? I don't have children but I have bills to pay too. Why are they playing favorites? Don't they realize who is having kids on a large scale for tax benefits and/or citizenship grants? Of course they do. They know what they are doing.
And migrating from free lunch to free breakfast
Get them hooked early.

It was proven in 2020 that we don't need PE and art classes and music classes to get kids an education, at least the parts that will help them get a job and be a valuable member of society. Hobbies can be hobbies. 99.9% of us aren't getting a job playing the trumpet.

IF the government didn't take my tax dollars and give it to someone else, on a grand scale, I could and would help friends/family/neighbors. Will people fall through the cracks still? Yep....as they do now.

If we have to look after each other with our direct time and money, we would, for the most part, encourage the people around us to shape up and do right, otherwise the hard working friends and neighbors might not want to help us if we hit a life speed bump. The 'golden rule' and all that. There is your rising tide. Taking my hard earned money and giving it to deadbeats drags us all down.
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Its a valid debate with valid points on both sides of the aisle.
Just for consideration art, music and sports serve a few purposes.
1- it exposes kids to culture they may not otherwise have
2- it develops different parts of the brain
3- It exposes skills/talents they may not otherwise recognize
4- It provides a hook to engagement. The same reason Churches have gymnasiums and basketball courts. I dont think the Bible ever referenced honing ones jumpshot, but if you can get a kid or fringe member to come just for thebasketball you hope they will stay and learn the word. Same idea here you encourage attendance through doing something they like to encourage growth and development for the betterment of society
 
Ron said:
Its a valid debate with valid points on both sides of the aisle.
Just for consideration art, music and sports serve a few purposes.
1- it exposes kids to culture they may not otherwise have
2- it develops different parts of the brain
3- It exposes skills/talents they may not otherwise recognize
4- It provides a hook to engagement. The same reason Churches have gymnasiums and basketball courts. I dont think the Bible ever referenced honing ones jumpshot, but if you can get a kid or fringe member to come just for thebasketball you hope they will stay and learn the word. Same idea here you encourage attendance through doing something they like to encourage growth and development for the betterment of society
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likewise, @benXJ you said you don't have kids and it kind of shows if you think that they got by just fine this year w/o having PE, music, or art.
I'll say that while my kids made out OK grade-wise - they both suffered BIG TIME socially and intellectually. My son especially really struggles with social integration (he is high-functioning ASD) and being in Band in high school has has been the single best thing for bringing him closer to being a likely productive interactive member of society.
I'd pull him out of calculus and physics before I'd pull him from music. Because 5 years from now the interactions and teamwork, not to mention a general joy for life he has learned there will greatly outperform the usefulness of being able to integrate a function.
My daughter hates math and most structured education. But she enjoys school... bc she gets to also do Art and stuff that make it fun and enjoyable for her. If you removed those things, then school would only be a miserable experience that she would dread and not want to do
 
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benXJ said:
IF the government didn't take my tax dollars and give it to someone else, on a grand scale, I could and would help friends/family/neighbors. Will people fall through the cracks still? Yep....as they do now.
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Isn't that what the churches used to do? I would so much rather donate more to a local church or charities close to home. One where you can actually see what your donation is doing. Instead of them taking more and more taxes putting the money into gov programs that waste 99 cents on the dollar they receive.
 
RatLabGuy said:
likewise, @benXJ you said you don't have kids and it kind of shows if you think that they got by just fine this year w/o having PE, music, or art.
I'll say that while my kids made out OK grade-wise - they both suffered BIG TIME socially and intellectually. My son especially really struggles with social integration (he is high-functioning ASD) and being in Band in high school has has been the single best thing for bringing him closer to being a likely productive interactive member of society.
I'd pull him out of calculus and physics before I'd pull him from music. Because 5 years from now the interactions and teamwork, not to mention a general joy for life he has learned there will greatly outperform the usefulness of being able to integrate a function.
My daughter hates math and most structured education. But she enjoys school... bc she gets to also do Art and stuff that make it fun and enjoyable for her. If you removed those things, then school would only be a miserable experience that she would dread and not want to do
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I didnt like school either. I didn't go because of PE and art class. I went to memorize and get good grades and go to college...and see the ladies. Would I rather been doing something else, for sure. Most days I dreaded to go too. Your kid isn't unique. My parents instilled a decent work ethic and being proud of accomplishments. And personal responsibility. You can get your kid in sports, choirs, hobby classes after school, summer programs, weekends....ON YOUR OWN DIME, FAR MORE EFFICIENTLY...(and with less mandated school time, you and your kids will have a bit more time to do fun things). Don't make me take an art class just because. I don't want to pay for kids to take art classes and dick around for an hour for 180 days a year.

The covid debacle hopefully taught us something....don't lock your kids away....I didn't stop seeing people and kept busy. I don't know what to say about lockdowns.... hopefully that is a one off thing from now on.

The point is, there is an insane amount of wasted time and money and lack of personal responsibility in schools now (accentuated by covid), and that is just one smallish segment of where our tax dollars go. It can be fixed, cheap and easy, in a generation or two.
 
benXJ said:
I didnt like school either. I didn't go because of PE and art class. I went to memorize and get good grades and go to college...and see the ladies. Would I rather been doing something else, for sure. Most days I dreaded to go too. Your kid isn't unique. My parents instilled a decent work ethic and being proud of accomplishments. And personal responsibility. You can get your kid in sports, choirs, hobby classes after school, summer programs, weekends....ON YOUR OWN DIME, FAR MORE EFFICIENTLY...(and with less mandated school time, you and your kids will have a bit more time to do fun things). Don't make me take an art class just because. I don't want to pay for kids to take art classes and dick around for an hour for 180 days a year.

The covid debacle hopefully taught us something....don't lock your kids away....I didn't stop seeing people and kept busy. I don't know what to say about lockdowns.... hopefully that is a one off thing from now on.

The point is, there is an insane amount of wasted time and money and lack of personal responsibility in schools now (accentuated by covid), and that is just one smallish segment of where our tax dollars go. It can be fixed, cheap and easy, in a generation or two.
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I mean this in the nicest way possible but its going to sound like a dick when I say it.

Look beyond your own experience and pretend at least to care about others from other walks of life.

You seem oblivious to the blessings you had that many dont. I , for one, didnt have "parents" in my life. I had a parent, most of the time, when she was well... We certainly didnt have money for extracurriculars
Lots of others dont even have it that good.

Honestly keeping kids in school is safest for them and the community.

Now the truth is I was exposed to those who had more and better and driven to want to provide that for the next generation and I have and continue to do so. Or you could have just left me at home alone and supported me for the next 60 years, or until my premature demise.

So yeah perspective is a beautiful thing. I agree philosophically that community support should be the role of the Church more so than the government, but I also recognize that Church membership is declining at unprecedented rates. I'm always tickled by the folks who say "leave it to the Church and community" and then ask them "Do you tithe? Without fail?"...the answer typically changes to one of excuses.

I dont tithe, because I havent found a Church yet that was efficient enough with my money after doing a stint on a budget and finance committee of one. Instead I give a solid 10%+ directly to helping the less fortunate every year directly.
I try to do my part. But I'm far from perfect and strive to get better...

Sorry off subject tangent to say that I fully support public schools and while I recognize they need reform they are better than any alternative I can think of.

Now if we want to talk about why public schools need to be temples and lush and showpieces....well we can bring @CasterTroy and @shawn together and let them ( i suspect) agree for the first time in a decade... :D
 
Ron said:
Now if we want to talk about why public schools need to be temples and lush and showpieces....well we can bring @CasterTroy and @shawn together and let them ( i suspect) agree for the first time in a decade... :D
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If you take out:

Learning stairs
Collaborative spaces
Movable walls

From an architects bag of tricks, and keep them focused on the spaces and not an effigy to their firm planted in the line of sight as you drive up to the school, and just build a damn school....you'll likely be able to house the students you need within a reasonable budget
 
Ron said:
So yeah perspective is a beautiful thing. I agree philosophically that community support should be the role of the Church more so than the government, but I also recognize that Church membership is declining at unprecedented rates. I'm always tickled by the folks who say "leave it to the Church and community" and then ask them "Do you tithe? Without fail?"...the answer typically changes to one of excuses.
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Or if you say, "let charities handle it" I ask, how many charities are you working for right now? Have you been involved in what they have to go through for fundraising? Or to get participation?

The notion that 3rd party charities can pull off what we do through the schools is laughable.
The reason schools have the money they do is because the county/state takes it and doesn't give you a choice.
Given the choice, most people won't give up their money. Which means much less money available to do "charitable things" with.
 
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RatLabGuy said:
I ask, how many charities are you working for right now? Have you been involved in what they have to go through for fundraising? Or to get participation?
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Never let your right hand know what your left hand is doing. I think you'd be shocked at who does what. But these things are not to be bragged about for self glorification.
RatLabGuy said:
The notion that 3rd party charities can pull off what we do through the schools is laughable.
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Given today's lack of giving/concern for others I see why you find that amusing...however...ideally the "church" is supposed to take care of the needs of it's community and NOT the government. But we haven't seen that type of care nor giving since the government decided to "take up the slack" after WWII.
 
CasterTroy said:
Given today's lack of giving/concern for others I see why you find that amusing...however...ideally the "church" is supposed to take care of the needs of it's community and NOT the government. But we haven't seen that type of care nor giving since the government decided to "take up the slack" after WWII.
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I agree with you, but that ideal is only valud as long as you believe that the Church should be a major player in society in the first place.
We are historically a majority Christian country, but that is changing very rapidly.

Change "Church" with "Charity X" and the notion is still the same. But it doesn't happen, bc their no one consolidated charity like The church.
 
Ron said:
I mean this in the nicest way possible but its going to sound like a dick when I say it.

Look beyond your own experience and pretend at least to care about others from other walks of life.

You seem oblivious to the blessings you had that many dont. I , for one, didnt have "parents" in my life. I had a parent, most of the time, when she was well... We certainly didnt have money for extracurriculars
Lots of others dont even have it that good.

Honestly keeping kids in school is safest for them and the community.

Now the truth is I was exposed to those who had more and better and driven to want to provide that for the next generation and I have and continue to do so. Or you could have just left me at home alone and supported me for the next 60 years, or until my premature demise.

So yeah perspective is a beautiful thing. I agree philosophically that community support should be the role of the Church more so than the government, but I also recognize that Church membership is declining at unprecedented rates. I'm always tickled by the folks who say "leave it to the Church and community" and then ask them "Do you tithe? Without fail?"...the answer typically changes to one of excuses.

I dont tithe, because I havent found a Church yet that was efficient enough with my money after doing a stint on a budget and finance committee of one. Instead I give a solid 10%+ directly to helping the less fortunate every year directly.
I try to do my part. But I'm far from perfect and strive to get better...

Sorry off subject tangent to say that I fully support public schools and while I recognize they need reform they are better than any alternative I can think of.

Now if we want to talk about why public schools need to be temples and lush and showpieces....well we can bring @CasterTroy and @shawn together and let them ( i suspect) agree for the first time in a decade... :D
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tl;dr
 
shawn said:
tl;dr
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how cute.
"I took the time to reply to your post to tell you I dont have time to read your post"

Its military base project conference call day so I have some time...
A quick word doc tool says that my original post is 349 words.
A quick google search says the average college graduate reads 325 words per minutes with an common range of +/- 100 wpm. So either Shawn is soo busy he cant spare 45 seconds, or...he is a below average reader.

:flipoff2:
 
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Ron said:
how cute.
"I took the time to reply to your post to tell you I dont have time to read your post"

Its military base project conference call day so I have some time...
A quick word doc tool says that my original post is 349 words.
A quick google search says the average college graduate reads 325 words per minutes with an common range of =/- 100 wpm. So either Shawn is soo busy he cant spare 45 seconds, or...he is a below average reader.

:flipoff2:
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especially when @Ron leads off with
Ron said:
I mean this in the nicest way possible but its going to sound like a dick when I say it.
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You know the next part is gonna be worth reading
 
The universe offers corrections at times

225AFB60-776C-42B8-8913-3096FBD7DEB4.jpeg
 
83oldyoda4x4 said:
Wait I thought we had an Education lottery that was to solve these issues.

You me the state run "education lottery" isn't providing adequate amount of funds to supplement school systems.
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If you look at the budget, the lottery is providing plenty of funds to the system. It is your elected leaders that decided they could move the money that used to be given to education, to another bucket because "the lottery is covering it now".
 
Ron said:
I mean this in the nicest way possible but its going to sound like a dick when I say it.

Look beyond your own experience and pretend at least to care about others from other walks of life.

You seem oblivious to the blessings you had that many dont. I , for one, didnt have "parents" in my life. I had a parent, most of the time, when she was well... We certainly didnt have money for extracurriculars
Lots of others dont even have it that good.

Honestly keeping kids in school is safest for them and the community.

Now the truth is I was exposed to those who had more and better and driven to want to provide that for the next generation and I have and continue to do so. Or you could have just left me at home alone and supported me for the next 60 years, or until my premature demise.

So yeah perspective is a beautiful thing. I agree philosophically that community support should be the role of the Church more so than the government, but I also recognize that Church membership is declining at unprecedented rates. I'm always tickled by the folks who say "leave it to the Church and community" and then ask them "Do you tithe? Without fail?"...the answer typically changes to one of excuses.

I dont tithe, because I havent found a Church yet that was efficient enough with my money after doing a stint on a budget and finance committee of one. Instead I give a solid 10%+ directly to helping the less fortunate every year directly.
I try to do my part. But I'm far from perfect and strive to get better...

Sorry off subject tangent to say that I fully support public schools and while I recognize they need reform they are better than any alternative I can think of.

Now if we want to talk about why public schools need to be temples and lush and showpieces....well we can bring @CasterTroy and @shawn together and let them ( i suspect) agree for the first time in a decade... :D
Click to expand...

The one piece that you mentioned is a big one. There were hundreds of kids in our school district, who went all year without being heard from. They were sending out case workers all over the county to make sure many of these kids were safe. They didnt much care about the education piece, but school is a place where the kids who need it can get away from getting beat/abused, or having to be a parent at 8 cuz mom works all night, or mom/dad is drunk/stoned constantly. School shouldnt be a childcare facility, but it is, and sadly needs to be. Also, if you think about the social interaction in many schools, you will not likely get that in your community otherwise. Yes, I know many schools dont have an equal distribution of ethnicity, but there is some in most schools. For some kids, going to school allows them to see and interact with people of different cultures, races, and classes and gives them options/encouragement for their lives that they might not see in their immediate community.

As far as music, art, and PE. I agree with what Ron and Dave mentioned. Personally, I wasnt one who cared much about it, but as a parent of 2 young boys, they need those other activities throughout the day. Many boys, and girls, need time in the middle of learning to get their energy out. And kids all do it in different manners, hence why the different options are needed. It lets them burn some steam, and express themselves in ways that arent appropriate in the classroom.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
school is a place where the kids who need it can get away from getting beat/abused, or having to be a parent at 8 cuz mom works all night, or mom/dad is drunk/stoned constantly. School shouldnt be a childcare facility, but it is, and sadly needs to be.
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Boone county WVa

If you've watched The Wild Wonderful Whites of West Virginia, you will know good and well those kids need to be checked on!!!!!
 
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