"Gonna do it right...maybe!!??" Fuller's new XJ build!!!

[Scooter402]

Yeah I've got the CV yoke. I'm not concerned about driveshaft at all, I've always done really good with pinion angles and driveshafts!
I'm just a little concerned about that positive caster that's all

Got it. I've had good luck with CV shafts in mine, too.

Well...I see one of a few options here, since you don't have link mounts welded on yet. It looks like your spring buckets are tilted forward a bit. You can either tilt them back such that they are in line with your bump stops, and that might bring your caster up to about 0 degrees, or just a hair back. Some people might not give half a rat's keister about having positive caster on a trail rig, but the steering input/feel may be important to you, so that's your call. I've cut and turned the inner c's on a D44, and it takes a while to grind the factory weld out. And once you think you've got it all and start wailing on the c with a hammer, you'll find quickly that you missed a spot.

It just looks to me that the pinion is pointed awfully high.

 

[Scooter402]

Ahh man
So while spring is still on, should I carefully go up to where all the weight is on them then measure the whatever u said

Aw, hell naw! not unless you want that axle kicking the springs out and launching them across your garage once the axle rotates...

You can probably estimate within a reasonable amount to what the sprung weight of the front of your rig is...cut that in half (one half for each spring) and divide each half by your spring rate. That is how many inches the suspension will compress with the full sprung weight on it. Subtract whatever the result is from the static height of the spring, then set that distance between your upper and lower spring buckets. Ta-da! Axle set at ride height.

 

[Jody Treadway]

Set the chassis at ride height.
Set axle at ride height.
Set caster/pinion angle.
Build links, steering, track bar
Figure out what length/height coil fills the gap between the axle and chassis while maintaining correct geometry.
Make adjustments and enjoy.

 

[marty79]

It just looks to me that the pinion is pointed awfully high.

It is and that's so I can get good droop otherwise I'm not happy lol. All the money I spent on proper links dagum it it's gonna flex lol.
I've had a D30 tilted forward like that and felt a little weird so I'm undecided...
Can cut and turn be done in a day...and I take it 220amp welder will burn it plenty good with flux

 

[Scooter402]

Set the chassis at ride height.
Set axle at ride height.
Set caster/pinion angle.
Build links, steering, track bar
Figure out what length/height coil fills the gap between the axle and chassis while maintaining correct geometry.
Make adjustments and enjoy.

You've done this before, haven't you?

 

[marty79]

Figure out what length/height coil fills the gap

I'm not arguing...
But I know my coils they're 6.5 with .75spacer (for winch and other wight) so 7" lift basically and that I'm set on.
I hate to be difficult so forgive me Jody, I have the front coils, buckets, front to back, centered left to right and pinion set so everything is perfect where I want it...is starting over really necessary just to maybe free up 2degrees of caster..which I can easily adjust now but I don't think I will.

I guess my only option as @ckruzer said is live with small positive caster or spend time now put pinion right there and grind my little heart out for hours and give me best of both worlds..have good high pinion angle and good negative caster...arrgghh the work never stops lol

 

[WARRIORWELDING]

I completely get the way your used to doing this process. Not knowing the actual spring height on full weight leads to an educated guess. What coils do you have? Some figure spring rate by number of coils and diameter of wire. Progressive rates are a little different. Corner weight or an educated guess would help dail in this as well.
If your super unsure or want to know what exactly your spring are going to do make a make shift coil mount. Weld it to a very stable platform, each side. Ie dummy axle. Load measure height. Build to suit the new data.
The method these guys use works directly with being able to choose compression, drop, bump distances and the related. Most considered mounted lengths of desired equipment at this time. Physical compressed lenght, extended lenght, and amount of shaft showing for preferred ride height.They build to suit then either buy the correct coils, coil overs, or air charges in air shocks. Then valving and fine tuning come into play.

 

[marty79]

just looks to me that the pinion is pointed awfully high.

And it is also so I don't ever bind it. One thing I've been very very successful at is not breaking driveshaft due to binding at all rpms..I'm meticulous about my angles so gives me peace of mind at full droop I can romp on it and never worry to break the driveshaft..one less thing to worry about

 

[WARRIORWELDING]

I will also add by using the method your used to doing definitely pick drive line angle over steering. If it's a trail only rig this would be the compromise. Your right the c' s can be chiseled at. Given the choice it's the alternative, but again a lot of work. Just do it right and don't cut and turn the whole tube. As it set it will dive and turn under, making the road manners leathal.

 

[Jody Treadway]

I'm not arguing...
But I know my coils they're 6.5 with .75spacer (for winch and other wight) so 7" lift basically and that I'm set on.
I hate to be difficult so forgive me Jody, I have the front coils, buckets, front to back, centered left to right and pinion set so everything is perfect where I want it...is starting over really necessary just to maybe free up 2degrees of caster..which I can easily adjust now but I don't think I will.

I guess my only option as @ckruzer said is live with small positive caster or spend time now put pinion right there and grind my little heart out for hours and give me best of both worlds..have good high pinion angle and good negative caster...arrgghh the work never stops lol

It seems to me you are basing your entire build around an $80 pair of existing coil springs as opposed to proper geometry.
Most folks do it the way I posted and leave the springs as a near final purchase once everything I listed earlier is completed in a satisfactory manner.
To each his own if it works as well as the builder desires.

 

[marty79]

They build to suit then either buy the correct coils, coil overs, or air charges in air shocks. Then valving and fine tuning come into play.

I figured that but I don't believe I'm at this level nor ready to do it..es especial this far into the install. Axle is set, coils are there, mounts are all in on frame side too.
I get how they do it now and why but for me, I think it's just too much right now ...along with everything else I'm doing that's too much..
(Would've been good to do this new type of install on stock stuff but I'm really good at my way and it performs well so changing it will probably get stuff screwed up)

 

[marty79]

It seems to me you are basing your entire build around an $80 pair of existing coil springs as opposed to proper geometry.

I always have not knowing any other way but I've gotten pretty good at doing it this way and have done some long arm setups that I sold (7" lift on 35s at 80mph no lie rode like a Cadillac).
It's not the norm but it's a way that I taught myself long ago and just kinda built on it..given however I've not built rigs like y'all and would not attempt either besides on my own

 

[marty79]

I will also add by using the method your used to doing definitely pick drive line angle over steering. If it's a trail only rig this would be the compromise. Your right the c' s can be chiseled at. Given the choice it's the alternative, but again a lot of work. Just do it right and don't cut and turn the whole tube. As it set it will dive and turn under, making the road manners leathal.

So ur saying roll with it as is for crawler only or ...cut n turn

 

[WARRIORWELDING]

I figured that but I don't believe I'm at this level nor ready to do it..es especial this far into the install. Axle is set, coils are there, mounts are all in on frame side too.
I get how they do it now and why but for me, I think it's just too much right now ...along with everything else I'm doing that's too much..
(Would've been good to do this new type of install on stock stuff but I'm really good at my way and it performs well so changing it will probably get stuff screwed up)

And this is why your stuff doesn't stay on jack stands for long, while mine awaits......well waits. Believe me i respect your ambition. We all have a better way and a budget. Just use the advice that best fits yours best you can.

Now one more thing. Since your running the y shape link. Take in account the pinion angle and it's cycle. The angle and link length is going to make this move some. Shoot for a position that mimics the drive line and link on the same plain and pivots. This will help keep the pinion pointed where you want it at all times.

 

[ckruzer]

I guess my only option as @ckruzer said is live with small positive caster or spend time now put pinion right there and grind my little heart out for hours and give me best of both worlds..have good high pinion angle and good negative caster...arrgghh the work never stops lol

I never said that dude.

 

[marty79]

I never said that dude.

Sorry guess I misread my bad

 

[marty79]

Since your running the y shape link. Take in account the pinion angle and it's cycle. The angle and link length is going to make this move some. Shoot for a position that mimics the drive line and link on the same plain and pivots. This will help keep the pinion pointed where you want it at all times.

I was going to run a fixed y link (upper mount is fixed on the lower arm and only heim joint on axle to set pinion) this way pinion keeps same angle through suspension travel.
It's how the Ironrock 3 link long arm kit is that I bought years ago ( and many others offer same setup).
This is my plan

 

[Jody Treadway]

@marty79
I'm by no means an expert chassis guy, but I have built numerous rigs from the ground up.
I've also done many, many axle swaps into chassis they were never intended for.
With that very humbly said...
You asked for input and advice, I laid out a very accurate and easy to follow process and you argue.
You solicit advice but rarely apply it. Why is that?

My way is by no means the only way, but it's an approach that will yield positive results without having to re-do much to make final adjustments. With your approach, you have no idea what the pinion angle or caster is going to do when the weight is on the axle. Nor do you have any idea what effect suspension movement will have on the aforementioned items. With mine, you can cycle the suspension and see what happens
Do you see that?
We're really trying to help you learn. For real.

 

[NC-V]

Just because the upper link is fixed, doesn't mean the pinion angle stays fixed throughout travel. That would depend on the link length and mounting locations. Can be seen visually very easily if you draw out the arc of your driveshaft and the arc of your link. A fixed upper link will actually provide more pinion angle change throughout travel than a standard 3 or 4 link.

 

[Scooter402]

Got it. I've had good luck with CV shafts in mine, too.

Well...I see one of a few options here, since you don't have link mounts welded on yet. It looks like your spring buckets are tilted forward a bit. You can either tilt them back such that they are in line with your bump stops, and that might bring your caster up to about 0 degrees, or just a hair back. Some people might not give half a rat's keister about having positive caster on a trail rig, but the steering input/feel may be important to you, so that's your call. I've cut and turned the inner c's on a D44, and it takes a while to grind the factory weld out. And once you think you've got it all and start wailing on the c with a hammer, you'll find quickly that you missed a spot.

It just looks to me that the pinion is pointed awfully high.

I'm not arguing...
But I know my coils they're 6.5 with .75spacer (for winch and other wight) so 7" lift basically and that I'm set on.
I hate to be difficult so forgive me Jody, I have the front coils, buckets, front to back, centered left to right and pinion set so everything is perfect where I want it...is starting over really necessary just to maybe free up 2degrees of caster..which I can easily adjust now but I don't think I will.

I guess my only option as @ckruzer said is live with small positive caster or spend time now put pinion right there and grind my little heart out for hours and give me best of both worlds..have good high pinion angle and good negative caster...arrgghh the work never stops lol

I never said that dude.

It was me!

 

[marty79]

@marty79
I'm by no means an expert chassis guy, but I have built numerous rigs from the ground up.
I've also done many, many axle swaps into chassis they were never intended for.
With that very humbly said...
You asked for input and advice, I laid out a very accurate and easy to follow process and you argue.
You solicit advice but rarely apply it. Why is that?

My way is by no means the only way, but it's an approach that will yield positive results without having to re-do much to make final adjustments. With your approach, you have no idea what the pinion angle or caster is going to do when the weight is on the axle. Nor do you have any idea what effect suspension movement will have on the aforementioned items. With mine, you can cycle the suspension and see what happens
Do you see that?
We're really trying to help you learn. For real.

Hey I really do get this, honestly. There are certain things I guess I'm just too set in my ways of doing and too uncomfortable to learn something new or too stubborn, this admit. (Bad habit? Probably yes).
I'll be little more up front..trying something new I get very scared on something like this axle swap/setup. Why?
If and when I get lost/confused/frustrated too much, my dormant anger issues tend to flare up then I kinda loose it and who knows what junk I end up with or don't end up with. (It's happened before) so I avoid it with certain things. Keeping things simple and with what I know and do pretty good at ensures I will get it done in timely manner and like it.
(Many many years ago lost my temper on my first long arm build for crossmember and links..nothing lined up etc etc after trying to follow internet instructions for days and my temper mental butt pushed Jeep over off jack stands similar to my current tall ones...not a good day) since then I keep and maintain what I feel I can do/learn from how I perceive it through reading about it.

I spent 3days just doing front leaf springs on this for just 4mounts, pathetic I know so I don't learn very fast..mixed with little impatience and too much ambition I'm all screwed up.
I'm very thankful for your help but please don't take it personally if I choose to keep a certain way of something.

Sorry for the long post man, just little more about me relevant to all this

 

[NC-V]

I always have not knowing any other way but I've gotten pretty good at doing it this way and have done some long arm setups that I sold (7" lift on 35s at 80mph no lie rode like a Cadillac).
It's not the norm but it's a way that I taught myself long ago and just kinda built on it..given however I've not built rigs like y'all and would not attempt either besides on my own

2* negative caster will not make a big difference on a trail only rig, it may look a little funny and point your tie rod lower to the ground a bit, but it will run ok. You will not want to drive on the road, especially with any speed.

With the money you have spent so far on link parts, and the lack of suspension design experience (not an insult, just calling it like it is) I would strongly recommend taking the time to cycle the suspension with some mocked up links with no springs in place. This will allow you to see how the pinion changes, what clearance issues you may have, and check all your geometry.

With all you have cut from the xj, may I ask why you are set on 7"+ of lift for 37's? My BIL runs 40s on his one ton MJ with 4.5 coils, no spacers, with a winch on the front. You are building a custom vehicle with your own suspension. Pull the springs, set the ride height where things fit, where it doesn't sit too high, where you have the travel you want and clearances you want. Build your bumpstops to stop where you need them. Make the ride height where you want it to be, and hell trim the spring it you are set on using those. They aren't progressive rate and they aren't flat bottomed, trim off the bottom (with a cut off wheel, not a torch). Don't base your entire suspension on a set of springs...

 

[marty79]

Just because the upper link is fixed, doesn't mean the pinion angle stays fixed throughout travel. That would depend on the link length and mounting locations. Can be seen visually very easily if you draw out the arc of your driveshaft and the arc of your link. A fixed upper link will actually provide more pinion angle change throughout travel than a standard 3 or 4 link.

Oh oops I guess I got that backwards..then the radius arm link is probably what I want then...brain overload lol

 

[1stgenxxx]

Since your not using fenders...why not rotate the coil buckets back to same angle of the stock dodge coil buckets and use stock Cherokee coils. You want stability...get low, you're already wide

 

[marty79]

2* negative caster will not make a big difference on a trail only rig, it may look a little funny and point your tie rod lower to the ground a bit, but it will run ok. You will not want to drive on the road, especially with any speed.

With the money you have spent so far on link parts, and the lack of suspension design experience (not an insult, just calling it like it is) I would strongly recommend taking the time to cycle the suspension with some mocked up links with no springs in place. This will allow you to see how the pinion changes, what clearance issues you may have, and check all your geometry.

With all you have cut from the xj, may I ask why you are set on 7"+ of lift for 37's? My BIL runs 40s on his one ton MJ with 4.5 coils, no spacers, with a winch on the front. You are building a custom vehicle with your own suspension. Pull the springs, set the ride height where things fit, where it doesn't sit too high, where you have the travel you want and clearances you want. Build your bumpstops to stop where you need them. Make the ride height where you want it to be, and hell trim the spring it you are set on using those. They aren't progressive rate and they aren't flat bottomed, trim off the bottom (with a cut off wheel, not a torch). Don't base your entire suspension on a set of springs...

Well it was at 6" lift and I liked it a lot felt good, now will feel even better stretched and hope soon for 40s ish. Just a preference I guess, that's my stance I like so I'm not skidding on everything so easily.

Guess I didn't mention I'm kinda on time limit to get my garage freed up and get back to side work, have like 2 motors and lift kit install waiting (i hope still) lol so taking my time but not too crazy long.