Obamacare

[jeepmedic]

I'll take "7-11 Super Big Gulp of Kool-Aid" for 1000, Alex. No offense, but that is what it was intended to do. If it actually succeeded then nobody would have cared even if the jacked up website worked or not.

I agree that this is some Jim Jones shit. The act is flawed and the taxpayer is going to get fucked somehow. Let's not even mention the joke of a website they came up with.

 

[UTfball68]

Damn...this thread has a lot going for it.

Capitalism...I'm always for it, regardless of cost. You don't like the cost of a helicopter ride, then die. Or figure out how you can ride the gravy train...if it was that easy, everyone would be doing it.

Insurance...want it, don't want it...I don't care, but when you don't have the cash out of pocket to pay for your life saving surgery...I vote to let you die, at that point you're no better than anyone else with their hand out.

Obamacare/ACA...blame Bush...it's easier.

 

[strange1]

I'm sure I am wrong, but it seems to me that one of the biggest problems in the healthcare industry in the lack of consistent billing. I have seen it first hand. John Doe #1 doesnt get charged as much as #2 because he doesnt have any coverage at all, and therefore we arent likely to collect a large sum of money from him. John Doe #2 isnt charged as much as #3 because he only has medicare/medicaid and they are only going to pay X amount of dollars regardless of what we bill them. John Doe #3 gets billed the most because he has private insurance and (even though they wont pay the full amount) they will pay the most. If doctors and hospitals billed private insurance the same as they billed medicare/medicaid (for the same treatment), insurance would be a lot more affodable. But at the same time, I believe that would cause the quality of healthcare to decline because fewer doctors would want to pay their high malpractice premiums (and high college tuition) without the promise of a large payday in return.

 

[ManglerYJ]

I'm sure I am wrong, but it seems to me that one of the biggest problems in the healthcare industry in the lack of consistent billing. I have seen it first hand. John Doe #1 doesnt get charged as much as #2 because he doesnt have any coverage at all, and therefore we arent likely to collect a large sum of money from him. John Doe #2 isnt charged as much as #3 because he only has medicare/medicaid and they are only going to pay X amount of dollars regardless of what we bill them. John Doe #3 gets billed the most because he has private insurance and (even though they wont pay the full amount) they will pay the most. If doctors and hospitals billed private insurance the same as they billed medicare/medicaid (for the same treatment), insurance would be a lot more affodable. But at the same time, I believe that would cause the quality of healthcare to decline because fewer doctors would want to pay their high malpractice premiums (and high college tuition) without the promise of a large payday in return.

But in whatever Utopia that the designers of Medicare/Medicaid were living in at the time, they bill at what is "usual and customary", which is what the insurance company "should" be billing. It all boils down to how much government control/regulation you want in your healthcare. Do you want a standardized pricelist a 'la the McDonalds Value Menu board where no matter who does the surgery and who pays for the surgery it all comes out the same amount? Then there is no incentive for a doctor to be tops in his field. If Ivy League Surgeon board certified in cardio-thoracic medicine is paid the same as Community College 2.2 GPA fresh out of online Med School, then we have a problem. This is where the open market and capitalism should have their say in the American healthcare system.

You can't take a principal that works well in a non-medical arena and expect to incorporate it into healthcare without a LOT of problems. Take your car care for example. There is a book that just about every garage uses to estimate how long it should take to do every job and therefore how many hours to bill. Take a head gasket for example. Just throwing it out there with nothing to back it up, but assume for the sake of argument the book says 6 hours. Mechanic A gets his done in 5 and still bills for the 6 hour job. He can do so because he was more diligent and was able to get the job done in a shorter amount of time. He can choose to bill only for his 5, but the customer expects to pay for 6 because that was what he was told up front. Mechanic B takes on the job and doesn't clean off the old head gasket very well and slaps it back together in 3 hours. He also can choose to bill full hours or cut the customer a break. Usual and customary. Because he cut corners, the gasket will most likely fail. Now, enter government regulation. The government now says that ALL head gaskets should take 4.5 hours because some of the head gaskets were getting done in 3. Nobody is allowed to be charged more than 4.5 hours regardless of who takes the job. Mechanic A is now forced to cut corners and give less than his best work if he expects to be paid for the hours worked. He can, on his own, choose to be diligent and do the job right and still only get paid the 4.5 hours, but knowing human nature - that won't last.

I know that I've taken a ridiculous stance on a very complicated process, but ridiculous is where we are heading.

 

[CThurmond]

6 hours till millions of Americans get fined and pay for choosing food and rent over a corrupt system causing them to pay more bc they work their asses off and made it to middle class.

 

[CThurmond]

It's not that hard, ask each person who works

Do you want a. 4% of your annual pay taken
8% of your annual pay taken
Or 12% of your annual pay taken

The more you pay in(%) the more your coverage covers and pays for. If your not happy with your options there should be private sectors with custom plans at custom rates.

It takes a rocket surgeon to figure that out.

 

[CThurmond]

If you make 5 million a year you should be paying same % as anyone else with your plan.

 

[snappy]

If you make 5 million a year you should be paying same % as anyone else with your plan.

Like wise if you make less than avg yearly income you should pay the same % as everyone else......

 

[CThurmond]

Yep

 

[ManglerYJ]

Like wise if you make less than avg yearly income you should pay the same % as everyone else......

You do realize that is EXACTLY what they were after in the first place.... those with 0 income will pay 0 for their healthcare and get the same quality as the guy making 5 million a year. 4% of nothing is still nothing. 4% of 5 million is intended to cover some of the 4% of nothing crowd.

The problem comes in where people have somehow got in their minds that they are ENTITLED or somehow have a right to healthcare. It's not a God given right protected under the Constitution. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is all we are granted. We aren't even guaranteed happiness, only the right to pursue it.

 

[strange1]

Burn

 

[oscar80]

You do realize that is EXACTLY what they were after in the first place.... those with 0 income will pay 0 for their healthcare and get the same quality as the guy making 5 million a year. 4% of nothing is still nothing. 4% of 5 million is intended to cover some of the 4% of nothing crowd.

The problem comes in where people have somehow got in their minds that they are ENTITLED or somehow have a right to healthcare. It's not a God given right protected under the Constitution. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is all we are granted. We aren't even guaranteed happiness, only the right to pursue it.

Them there rich people gotta pay more. Not fair that they make more. /Sarcasm

We have gotten to a twisted point on what is actually needed to survive. People have forgotten that cell phones, internet, nice car, cable, pre-made food are all luxury items.

Dave

 

[snappy]

You do realize that is EXACTLY what they were after in the first place.... those with 0 income will pay 0 for their healthcare and get the same quality as the guy making 5 million a year. 4% of nothing is still nothing. 4% of 5 million is intended to cover some of the 4% of nothing crowd.

The problem comes in where people have somehow got in their minds that they are ENTITLED or somehow have a right to healthcare. It's not a God given right protected under the Constitution. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is all we are granted. We aren't even guaranteed happiness, only the right to pursue it.

I think my point was taken wrong.... It was for the entitled crowd that thinks because they make less they should pay less.....

 

[Reid]

You do realize that is EXACTLY what they were after in the first place.... those with 0 income will pay 0 for their healthcare and get the same quality as the guy making 5 million a year. 4% of nothing is still nothing. 4% of 5 million is intended to cover some of the 4% of nothing crowd.

The problem comes in where people have somehow got in their minds that they are ENTITLED or somehow have a right to healthcare. It's not a God given right protected under the Constitution. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is all we are granted. We aren't even guaranteed happiness, only the right to pursue it.

you should read the subsidies scale. 0 income = 0 Subsidies.

 

[ManglerYJ]

I think my point was taken wrong.... It was for the entitled crowd that thinks because they make less they should pay less.....

I understood - I was just stirring the pot a bit. I don't even really have a dog in the fight. I'm leaching off of my wife's insurance plan through Baptist. I don't expect anyone to subsidize an insurance plan offered as part of a hospital employee health plan. It's "pretty good" health care, but it's definitely not cheap even taking into account how much Baptist contributes. I'm fairly healthy as that goes, but we have to have it for the kids. My wife is the type to run to the pediatrician every time a kid gets the sniffles, but my arm could still be stuck in the saw and she'd tell me to "suck it up and take a Tylenol". Like living with Nurse Rached

 

[1-tonmudder]

Yeah I'm s moron.... And Obama care is good.


I'm done

Ya

If you make between 12k-50k a year and you are single or have a family you understand. I cant explain to.people who could already afford health care , most Americans can't.

Over 90% of the uninsured will never be able to afford the cost.

http://www.businessinsider.com/best-healthcare-systems-in-the-world-2012-6?op=1
Not even close to best

Ya

6 hours till millions of Americans get fined and pay for choosing food and rent over a corrupt system causing them to pay more bc they work their asses off and made it to middle class.

It's not that hard, ask each person who works

Do you want a. 4% of your annual pay taken
8% of your annual pay taken
Or 12% of your annual pay taken

The more you pay in(%) the more your coverage covers and pays for. If your not happy with your options there should be private sectors with custom plans at custom rates.

It takes a rocket surgeon to figure that out.

Yep

Damn dude for somebody who was "done" three days ago u still have alot to say.I never could understand why people would say they are not commenting anymore but still keep on postin and postin.

 

[CThurmond]

Damn dude that bored to look up all those post to break balls ?

I never understood why people pick personal battles infront of a keyboard either.

Fact is its sad this convo has too sides , there is nothing good coming from Obama care , and I couldnt hold my tongue any longer .

 

[Ron]

I'm sure I am wrong, but it seems to me that one of the biggest problems in the healthcare industry in the lack of consistent billing. I have seen it first hand. John Doe #1 doesnt get charged as much as #2 because he doesnt have any coverage at all, and therefore we arent likely to collect a large sum of money from him. John Doe #2 isnt charged as much as #3 because he only has medicare/medicaid and they are only going to pay X amount of dollars regardless of what we bill them. John Doe #3 gets billed the most because he has private insurance and (even though they wont pay the full amount) they will pay the most. If doctors and hospitals billed private insurance the same as they billed medicare/medicaid (for the same treatment), insurance would be a lot more affodable. But at the same time, I believe that would cause the quality of healthcare to decline because fewer doctors would want to pay their high malpractice premiums (and high college tuition) without the promise of a large payday in return.

However the issue is, if I pay cash they hand me a 1 page bill and I pay it.
Now if I have insurance it requires something like 32 pages and expensive software just to submit a bill, then the doctor waits 6-7 month to be paid for services prvevously rendered. Insurance gets billed more BECAUSE it costs the doctors more.

If you make 5 million a year you should be paying same % as anyone else with your plan.

Do you REALLY believe that? Here is a sad truth, rich people are generally healthier than poor people.
Know why? Because the same discipline, self control and decision making that leads them to be successful in business also leads to them leading healthier lifestyles. Any idea what the % of smokers amongst the latest Forbes Top 100 richest folks in the US was? It was 2%. The most recent data Ive seen estimates that smoking amongst unemployed folks is ~62%...See a correlation? Obesity follows similar statistical lines.

So by your assumption folks who work harder to be healthier should pay more to help pay for those poor unfortunate folks who are unhealthy because of life choices (I understand that it isnt a perfect 1:1 correlation and bad things happen to good people but we have to make laws based on norms not exceptions)

I think health care should cost the same regardless of income. There is no reason for Bill Gates to pay more for knee surgery than I do ...because he can. Hell lets just expand that argument. Can cars, houses, food all charge according to wages? I mean shit there have to be some nice unemployed folks who want to drive a Mercedes (BTW they shouldn't they are highly over rated) they should be able to buy one new for $5k because they make less.

Damn dude that bored to look up all those post to break balls ?

I never understood why people pick personal battles infront of a keyboard either.

Fact is its sad this convo has two sides , there is nothing good coming from Obama care , and I couldnt hold my tongue any longer .

I havent heard one person here arguing FOR ACA. In fact I havent actually read you make an argument against it either. Just a bunch of general bitching by folks on both sides of insurance.

 

[1-tonmudder]

Damn dude that bored to look up all those post to break balls ?

I never understood why people pick personal battles infront of a keyboard either.

Fact is its sad this convo has too sides , there is nothing good coming from Obama care , and I couldnt hold my tongue any longer .

Its not that hard,just read along and click "reply" to what u just read.When u get to the bottom its all there waitin for you to add your intelligent,funny,or smart assie reply.I dont see many in this crowd ever defending Obummer on anything.

 

[CThurmond]

Ron I absolutely believe that, with out a equal % based system it will never work


Cars is just a stupid statement,

We are talking about a government and health care they should go hand in hand.

A government should take care of its peoples well being equally , which yes sorry to hurt your wallet means some people have to sacrifice a larger number but equal % of their income to help their nation.

 

[CThurmond]

.

 

[DSM Turbos]

I havent heard one person here arguing FOR ACA. In fact I havent actually read you make an argument against it either. Just a bunch of general bitching by folks on both sides of insurance.

I will argue that parts of ACA are good. Limiting insurance companies from not insuring pre existing medical is a great thing. I could not afford to not have a corporate job before as I have type 1 diabetes. I make good money but my medical bills and prescriptions cost me a good amount every year. Without a corporate job they may not cover my diabetes and would struggle to afford basic care for myself.

Other parts are good also but the system has plenty of flaws like our previous system did as well. The country needs real healthcare reform which will not come for a very long time. People's minds are already set so I hate even posting in these type threads. I also worked at a very large healthcare IT company for a number if years and that gives a very interesting perspective also.

 

[rockcity]

I'm sure I am wrong, but it seems to me that one of the biggest problems in the healthcare industry in the lack of consistent billing. I have seen it first hand. John Doe #1 doesnt get charged as much as #2 because he doesnt have any coverage at all, and therefore we arent likely to collect a large sum of money from him. John Doe #2 isnt charged as much as #3 because he only has medicare/medicaid and they are only going to pay X amount of dollars regardless of what we bill them. John Doe #3 gets billed the most because he has private insurance and (even though they wont pay the full amount) they will pay the most. If doctors and hospitals billed private insurance the same as they billed medicare/medicaid (for the same treatment), insurance would be a lot more affodable. But at the same time, I believe that would cause the quality of healthcare to decline because fewer doctors would want to pay their high malpractice premiums (and high college tuition) without the promise of a large payday in return.

Doctors generally dislike insurance and hate medicare/Medicaid; mostly because they dictate how much they will reimburse the doctor for a specific procedure and limit new and innovative (and generally better for the wellbeing of the patient) procedures and medicines without going through meaningless and (at best...) painful procedures and processes "first". Private pay is likely the new trend and many doctors are now no longer accepting anything other than cash pay customers. The reality is just like Ron said, doctors get screwed on reimbursements and have to finance your coverage for 6-7 months and still only get partially paid what they should. Insurance (read= insurance AND medicare/Medicaid) tends to drive the methods of treatment because they don't want to pay for something that will really help YOU out rather than the treatment being based on how well you will react to the procedure and what is best for YOU. Cash pay customers get better care and the procedures are cheaper because they get instant return on their efforts rather than having to wait months and months.

Doctors would generally love to work with all cash pay clients but Obama care is going to do 3 things... 1. Force more doctors (generally only older and well-to-do doctors) into cash pay only clinics for the people that want the best and most innovative service with top quality care (older doctors can generally afford to limit their client base). 2. Force early retirement of very capable doctors because of all the BS placed by Obamacare. 3. Force the younger doctors that can't retire and don't have the client base to be cash only doctors, to take on all of the load of the added millions on obamacare plus the patients from all the retired doctors.

Basically, there will not be enough doctors to see everyone in a timely manner and your treatment will be mediocre, at best. The doctors will be paid crap and you'll still be paying way too much for a supposed insurance plan that is crap. Whats an expensive insurance plan worth if the treatment is poor? Doctors will eventually get smart and the younger generations will be discouraged from entering the market, thus reducing the quality and innovativeness of our current health care system.


Is the system broken? Sure, but not nearly to the point to start Obamacare. It creates way more problems than it fixes, all at our expense.

 

[Ron]

Ron I absolutely believe that, with out a equal % based system it will never work


Cars is just a stupid statement,

We are talking about a government and health care they should go hand in hand.

A government should take care of its peoples well being equally , which yes sorry to hurt your wallet means some people have to sacrifice a larger number but equal % of their income to help their nation.

Taxing every dollar is fair.

You can't pick and choose which 1 is better then the other

Man I swear I am not trying to pick on you.
I want to understand your premise, and I dont get it. I generally consider myself a pretty intelligent individual capable of conceptually understanding various view points whether or not I agree with them.

What I have gathered from you.

- You hate Obamacare/ACA.
- You think insurance is too expensive and wish it were cheaper.
- You think low wage earners should pay less for insurance than high wage earners.
- You think all people should get the same medical treatment regardless of their ability to pay.
- You think healthcare for the entire population is the responsibility of the FEDERAL government.

Am I missing on any of these points?

 

[CThurmond]

.