Square cage...here it is

what Im tripping on is the front leafs- just why? and is that the fuel tank just chilling in the back?
 
Loganwayne said:
c1c4621727c7696d8c9ed9eba6b4575b.jpg


Make an x on the back from one corner to the other both ways, do it on the roof as well. Add a bottom windshield bar and a v to brace the top windshield bar. Take a bar from top of back pillar forward to the bottom of the next one forward
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Just to clarify, the windshield bar is added for a different reason than the rest of the triangulation members. I've always wondered why people feed loads from the middle of a upper tube in bending into the middle of the lower tube in bending and then call it triangulation.
That only works for one of two reasons:
  1. The cage is already overbuilt for the loads it could actually see, and therefore shortcomings are okay (basically, it doesn't matter if it doesn't add anything useful).
  2. The cage is built properly and could see high loads (racing, etc) and that lower bar is triangulated in the middle to something else below it (it usually isn't). Else, see number 1.
Mostly, I've seen that lower windshield tube not attached to anything in the middle, which makes me think that those people don't understand how it works. Or how cages work. It's a lot of tubing weight and visibility loss for something that can't work well unless it's executed properly.
 
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Fabrik8 said:
Just to clarify, the windshield bar is added for a different reason than the rest of the triangulation members. I've always wondered why people feed loads from the middle of a upper tube in bending into the middle of the lower tube in bending and then call it triangulation.
That only works for one of two reasons:
  1. The cage is already overbuilt for the loads it could actually see, and therefore shortcomings are okay.
  2. The cage is built properly and could see high loads (racing, etc) and that lower bar is triangulated in the middle to something else below it (it usually isn't). Else, see number 1.
Mostly, I've seen that lower windshield tube not attached to anything in the middle, which makes me think that those people don't understand how it works. Or how cages work. It's a lot of tubing weight and visibility loss for something that can't work well unless it's executed properly.
Click to expand...

Well you can say why you wouldn't have it but as far as I'm concerned I'm going to have one in my next cage. I'd hate to flip over backwards and land on the front part of the cage and it buckle. Windshield area is a big area to just leave open completely


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Loganwayne said:
Well you can say why you wouldn't have it but as far as I'm concerned I'm going to have one in my next cage. I'd hate to flip over backwards and land on the front part of the cage and it buckle. Windshield area is a big area to just leave open completely
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That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying they're useless for the intended purpose if not done properly. Well, at least if not done properly it may keep a deer from coming through the windshield on the highway, and that point becomes an anti-intrusion bar and not a functional part of a roll cage.

And now for some random images from Google.

Notice this:
369543d1210534902-tj-cage-inspiration-thread-cage-12b.jpg


Is not the same as this:
1002or-01-o%2Breinforcing-roll-cage%2Brollcage.jpg


Or this:
14646623430_c8e53120f2_b.jpg


In the top picture, there is nothing underneath the V brace. That's what people neglect. That means that lower horizontal bar is in bending if there is a vertical load on the top bar (your backflip scenario for example) and can have a nice buckling failure in bending. The top bar will potentially also fail in buckling at the same time, for the same reason. That V brace is not able to do nearly the job that you want it to, because it can't.

In the 2nd and 3rd pictures, the lower legs of the V brace are at a junction to another point, which means that lower horizontal bar is not in bending. Neither is the top bar. The V brace can actually serve a useful function. That's what you need to do.

HUGE difference. You want to be safe, and I also want you to be safe. Don't be like most people who build it like the top picture but think they're building it with the strength of the bottom picture..

My point is that if you're doing something to protect yourself, it should be done properly so it can do what you intend it to do.


That middle picture is full of awesomeness. So much awesomeness.
 
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Chuckman said:
what Im tripping on is the front leafs- just why? and is that the fuel tank just chilling in the back?
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Why..cause I had em and 16yrs later waged to try it. Gas tank is "chillin" but strapped down harder than needed..it took quite massive bouncing first trip. You couldn't rip it out if u wanted.
As for cage, hey its heavy...yes!..its weird/different..yes! Will it save my life ...absolutely
 
marty79 said:
Why..cause I had em and 16yrs later waged to try it. Gas tank is "chillin" but strapped down harder than needed..it took quite massive bouncing first trip. You couldn't rip it out if u wanted.
As for cage, hey its heavy...yes!..its weird/different..yes! Will it save my life ...absolutely
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There's a concept called a virtuous circle, where things have a self-reinforcing affect on something else.
A light vehicle has less kinetic energy than a heavy vehicle. The virtuous circle would say that as the vehicle is made lighter, the cage can be lighter duty, and made lighter weight, therefore making the entire vehicle lighter.

You've made the cage very heavy, making the entire vehicle very heavy, which now makes the heavier cage necessary. :lol:

Allow me to politely paraphrase my impolite inner thoughts: There's a reason that round tubing is used for cages, and no one has done any better of a job explaining the reason for that as they've done explaining the reasons for using triangles.
 
Fabrik8 said:
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying they're useless for the intended purpose if not done properly. Well, at least if not done properly it may keep a deer from coming through the windshield on the highway, and that point becomes an anti-intrusion bar and not a functional part of a roll cage.

And now for some random images from Google.

Notice this:
369543d1210534902-tj-cage-inspiration-thread-cage-12b.jpg


Is not the same as this:
1002or-01-o%2Breinforcing-roll-cage%2Brollcage.jpg


Or this:
14646623430_c8e53120f2_b.jpg


In the top picture, there is nothing underneath the V brace. That's what people neglect. That means that lower horizontal bar is in bending if there is a vertical load on the top bar (your backflip scenario for example) and can have a nice buckling failure in bending. The top bar will potentially also fail in buckling at the same time, for the same reason. That V brace is not able to do nearly the job that you want it to, because it can't.

In the 2nd and 3rd pictures, the lower legs of the V brace are at a junction to another point, which means that lower horizontal bar is not in bending. Neither is the top bar. The V brace can actually serve a useful function. That's what you need to do.

HUGE difference. You want to be safe, and I also want you to be safe. Don't be like most people who build it like the top picture.

My point is that if you're doing something to protect yourself, it should be done properly so it can do what you intend it to do.


That middle picture is full of awesomeness. So much awesomeness.
Click to expand...

I completely understand what your saying, but you have to draw a line somewhere If your wanting to keep a full body rig, with a full dash. Most of the cages on jeeps the v meets bars on top of cage making a node. Yes it can still deflect and bend. But less then it would if it's not there, you could also
Tie it into the bar that runs under the dash pretty easy


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Loganwayne said:
I completely understand what your saying, but you have to draw a line somewhere If your wanting to keep a full body rig, with a full dash. Most of the cages on jeeps the v meets bars on top of cage making a node. Yes it can still deflect and bend. But less then it would if it's not there, you could also
Tie it into the bar that runs under the dash pretty easy


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
nah dude. he's right. I was going to call you on it but he beat me to the punch. your "V" is upside down. if you roll you're taking the impact of that point and spreading the load instead of centralizing it onto one point. the only way to do it right is if you tie two more tubes into the bottom of the dash bar and form an "X" but that gets all up in your business when trying to fit all the other necessary shit like transmissions in there.
 
XJsavage said:
This might sound crazy.... Mister Marty Fuller the 79th, if you lived closer and I was 100% finished with my YJ (I'm 98.4% now), and you threw me material cost, I'd build a full cage in that Jeep for free. I repeat: Free! Just because I can.

*All haters please report to @Paul 's office*
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Haters gonna hate ya know. My office door is always open to discuss the zero fucks i give about shit that is trivial to me.
Flame away haters. I care less than nothing what anybody thinks about me.

McCracken said:
nah dude. he's right. I was going to call you on it but he beat me to the punch. your "V" is upside down. if you roll you're taking the impact of that point and spreading the load instead of centralizing it onto one point. the only way to do it right is if you tie two more tubes into the bottom of the dash bar and form an "X" but that gets all up in your business when trying to fit all the other necessary shit like transmissions in there.
Click to expand...

Yes.
 
With all the weight just plan on a bigger engine when the one in it goes... im anxious to see some videos of this thing on a hard trail hanging with some big boys! I always chuckled a lol when buddies in buggys told me my zj wouldn't make it up grapevine and easy out and lower rock garden and it did at same pace of them so anything possible and that was 10 years ago buggys are way more advanced now lol
 
Just thinking out loud here with regards to the windshield bars. I understand that verticles like the first picture they are essentially useless for deflecting/transferring a load because there's no where to brace the bottom to. But, (this is the thinking out load part) theoretically, aren't they of some minor benefit because by tying the top and bottom horizontal together they have somewhat strengthened the top bar? Two bars tied together like this should both bend half as much as one singular bar on top.

I'm no cage builder so I'm likely way off in left field but I felt like it was a plausible theory.
 
awheelterd said:
Just thinking out loud here with regards to the windshield bars. I understand that verticles like the first picture they are essentially useless for deflecting/transferring a load because there's no where to brace the bottom to. But, (this is the thinking out load part) theoretically, aren't they of some minor benefit because by tying the top and bottom horizontal together they have somewhat strengthened the top bar? Two bars tied together like this should both bend half as much as one singular bar on top.
Click to expand...

You're exactly correct on that. Well, mostly; you do transfer some load, but you're transferring it to the middle of tubes that are in bending.

You've tied two horizontal bars together, but both of those bars are in bending instead of tension/compression where they are strongest. So tying them together adds greater strength than having a single bar in bending by itself, but not nearly as much strength as bracing underneath the bottom bar (which would transform the loads from bending into loads in tension/compression).
 
C.Berry said:
With all the weight just plan on a bigger engine when the one in it goes... im anxious to see some videos of this thing on a hard trail hanging with some big boys! I always chuckled a lol when buddies in buggys told me my zj wouldn't make it up grapevine and easy out and lower rock garden and it did at same pace of them so anything possible and that was 10 years ago buggys are way more advanced now lol
Click to expand...
Lol its ok, I don't really care to "keep up" with buggies. If I do yeii, if not well as long as I'm not clogging the trail I'm happy. I do plan on using my 10k winch when needed rather than give he'll and break..that's the plan anyway lol
 
Paul said:
Flame away haters. I care less than nothing what anybody thinks about me.
Click to expand...
Same here, why I post my stuff. If I cared I wouldn't share but I share to get ideas, little advise and just cause I'm proud of my rig as the next guy!
 
Fabrik8 said:
You're exactly correct on that. Well, mostly; you do transfer some load, but you're transferring it to the middle of tubes that are in bending.

You've tied two horizontal bars together, but both of those bars are in bending instead of tension/compression where they are strongest. So tying them together adds greater strength than having a single bar in bending by itself, but not nearly as much strength as bracing underneath the bottom bar (which would transform the loads from bending into loads in tension/compression).
Click to expand...
Agreed 100%. My point was that even tho you don't have a good place to brace the bottom to, there is still a degree of benefit to be gained from tying them together. Plus it looks cool which is 90% of the reason folks put them in there :smokin:
 
awheelterd said:
Agreed 100%. My point was that even tho you don't have a good place to brace the bottom to, there is still a degree of benefit to be gained from tying them together. Plus it looks cool which is 90% of the reason folks put them in there :smokin:
Click to expand...

Yes.
My point (earlier) was that people do that and don't realize that it's not the same as with proper bracing underneath, so could easily have a false sense of security about how strong they think it is. Benefit or not, it's important to understand what you're doing instead of just copying another design and omitting important parts without knowing.
 
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awheelterd said:
Every time I see this thread I think it says Squirrel Cage.... here it is.

That's all I have to contribute.
Click to expand...

That'll be his next project. And it'll be built big enough to catch a grizzly, but not quite functional enough to do anything.
 
I tried to add some bracing to your pic, as others have said... Trying to brace the squares without completely killing the space. The yellow bars are additions on the sides of the cage. The green in the bracing behind the front seats. The pink is behind the rear seat. As for the roof, I cannot see it well, but I would make it look like a big horizontal X in each section. Basically you want to keep your |_| from looking like /_/ by |X|, |/|, or |\|.

15085380868722121809816.jpg
 
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