The future of cars

drkelly said:
If I had an electric car or truck, it would be charged from the coal burning power plant 10 miles up the road.
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But what is the efficiency difference between ICE and power plants. And I’m not just talking the efficiency of work but idle time, stop and go, warming up the engine, etc etc.
 
Futbalfantic said:
But what is the efficiency difference between ICE and power plants. And I’m not just talking the efficiency of work but idle time, stop and go, warming up the engine, etc etc.
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25-30% for coal, 50-60% for combined cycle gas turbine, 30-40% for nuclear. (But the efficiency really doesn't matter with nuclear because the supply volume/mass is so small)
25-35% for a gas ICE, 35-40% for diesel.

And none of these take into account manufacturing/construction, environmental impact, useability, etc. I'd like to own a Tesla, a big block mud truck, a steam locomotive, and a nuclear powerplant.
 
Futbalfantic said:
But what is the efficiency difference between ICE and power plants. And I’m not just talking the efficiency of work but idle time, stop and go, warming up the engine, etc etc.
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To elaborate a little more on this...
Most power plants don't run at 100% all the time, so the issues with part load efficiency, ramping up and down, excess generation, insufficient generation, etc all still exist, just at a much larger level. Everything is calc'd at steady state ideal conditions, and those things basically never happen. Same is true for EPA estimates on most cars. I think understanding that there is no such thing as a "zero emissions" vehicle is a good place to start.

I haven't seen @Elliott in a long time, but many moons ago, he made a statement I will never forget:
Elliott said:
Sorry I don't drive a bamboo car that runs on dreams and rainbows but please don't throw your starbucks trash in my windows.
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Futbalfantic said:
But what is the efficiency difference between ICE and power plants. And I’m not just talking the efficiency of work but idle time, stop and go, warming up the engine, etc etc.
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Probably not that huge.

I just get annoyed by the people who think their electric car causes zero pollution.
 
RatLabGuy said:
Lets also not forget about the shipping world. There are how many thousands and thousands of boats out there right now running on ICEs that have no viable alternative in the near future. Nobody talks about that. If you think converting long-haul trucks is a challenge, think about a boat that takes 3 weeks to traverse a space where there is literally nowhere to stop.

Maybe's we'll end up with massive international floating nuclear reactor stops in the middle of the ocean
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What about nuclear powered ships like the subs we have?




drkelly said:
Probably not that huge.

I just get annoyed by the people who think their electric car causes zero pollution.
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I am not in that camp, I know we by and large burn fuel to make juice. Still, I think electric is going to grow for many reasons.

I believe @shawn ’s point of electrical quantity is the biggest hurdle to larger implementation and battery technology is the biggest hurdle to wider acceptance.





I want a Plaid because reasons….

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ponykilr said:
What about nuclear powered ships like the subs we have?
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You wanna hand a nuclear reactor over to anybody that makes a big boat?
What could possibly go wrong there.
 
RatLabGuy said:
You wanna hand a nuclear reactor over to anybody that makes a big boat?
What could possibly go wrong there.
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Lots.

Problems require solutions to be created.

Can’t never did anything.
 
Well, it is showing that while mandating something feels good, the reality is once again government doesn’t know best.

Electric has a niche and as a choice it is attractive. Mandating that it happens causes ripples that are unpredictable at best and detrimental to the very thing desired.
 
The benefit is you come home from work and plug in but it doesn't actually start charging until 10:00. Prevents you from waiting to plug in until after peak times, forgetting, and having a dead car in the morning.
 
Electric cars should make it on their own. There shouldn't be government tax breaks and incentives. If it is a better product, then people will buy it.

I don't know this for a fact, but I doubt the government gave tax breaks to people buying automobiles running gas so they would give up their horse and buggy.
 
LBarr2002 said:
The benefit is you come home from work and plug in but it doesn't actually start charging until 10:00. Prevents you from waiting to plug in until after peak times, forgetting, and having a dead car in the morning.
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How about I come home and plug it in and it starts charging when I want it, because I'm taking a trip at 10pm?
 
www.freep.com

Study compares electric vehicle charge costs vs. gas — and results were surprising

In a study of some gas cars released by Anderson Economic Group, it can cost considerably more to drive an EV — until infrastructure improves.
www.freep.com

The study has four major findings:

  • There are four additional costs to powering EVs beyond electricity: cost of a home charger, commercial charging, the EV tax and "deadhead" miles.
  • For now, EVs cost more to power than gasoline costs to fuel an internal combustion car that gets reasonable gas mileage.
  • Charging costs vary more widely than gasoline prices.
  • There are significant time costs to finding reliable public chargers — even then a charger could take 30 minutes to go from 20% to an 80% charge.
 
drkelly said:
www.freep.com

Study compares electric vehicle charge costs vs. gas — and results were surprising

In a study of some gas cars released by Anderson Economic Group, it can cost considerably more to drive an EV — until infrastructure improves.
www.freep.com

The study has four major findings:

  • There are four additional costs to powering EVs beyond electricity: cost of a home charger, commercial charging, the EV tax and "deadhead" miles.
  • For now, EVs cost more to power than gasoline costs to fuel an internal combustion car that gets reasonable gas mileage.
  • Charging costs vary more widely than gasoline prices.
  • There are significant time costs to finding reliable public chargers — even then a charger could take 30 minutes to go from 20% to an 80% charge.
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What's interesting is when you look at transmission cost of fuel and factor it into the equation.

The extraction oof oil and tankers and gas statiosn etc, once an infastructure is established electricity transmit much cheaper.
 
EV might be the future, but my oil stocks are popping right now! 10% gains every few days look nice! Just gotta figure out when to jump out before the bubble pops!
 
Ron said:
Sort of - keep in mind that What's interesting is when you look at transmission cost of fuel and factor it into the equation.

The extraction oof oil and tankers and gas statiosn etc, once an infastructure is established electricity transmit much cheaper.
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Sort of but not really. Keep in mind that when you pay at the pump, you are repaying that cost (plus some profit). E.g. BP is recouping their cost with part of the per gallon charge.
So if one were making a cost comparison table, it would not be fair to include both the per gal pump fee cost AND the transmission cost b/c the transmission cost is already baked into the first one.
 
I don't have a problem with electric cars. I think they have their place. Not over the road and not in rural areas. I really hope the trend JCB started takes root and they work on a hydrogen solution.
 
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