alright lets talk business, shall we

skyhighZJ said:
Fuller is a $15/hr Burger King employee, give me the world for free Bernie Sanders voting turd. Remarks complete. Vote for permanent ban based on douche status. All those in favor?
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Tell you what bro, go pg2 of the build thread and read the review that was said about me as an employee....(employer words not mine) ..whose the deuch
 
https://www.local798.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/2018-2019-nlpa-wage-rates.pdf

CWI buddy of mine sent this over tonight after I picked his brain on the matter of what certified and trained welders make around the country.

This is big infrastructure jobs. People with certifications and passed tests and inspections on the regular. Not hometown job shop type work pay scale. And in his words “Most guys spend a few years at a helper level just learning the ins and outs of the job. We want people that can make metal stick together the right way in the worst situations imaginable, those are the guys that make it to the top pay scales.”
 
marty79 said:
Tell you what bro, go pg2 of the build thread and read the review that was said about me as an employee....(employer words not mine) ..whose the deuch
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Which is what makes it so damn confusing that you seem eager to bite the hand that feeds you after 4 months.

I didn't even know what my job actually was until after 4 months.


StretchASU said:
https://www.local798.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/2018-2019-nlpa-wage-rates.pdf

CWI buddy of mine sent this over tonight after I picked his brain on the matter of what certified and trained welders make around the country.

This is big infrastructure jobs. People with certifications and passed tests and inspections on the regular. Not hometown job shop type work pay scale. And in his words “Most guys spend a few years at a helper level just learning the ins and outs of the job. We want people that can make metal stick together the right way in the worst situations imaginable, those are the guys that make it to the top pay scales.”
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So you're saying that experience is valuable? Hmm, seems to be a lesson here.
 
77GreenMachine said:
The cliff notes are: Fuller feels that any business owner should pay their employees large sums based on the fact that the business owner makes so much money. In fact he thinks if a shop charges $100/hr labor rate and pays the employee $20/hr that must mean the owner makes $80/hr for each employee because he has no idea what the expenses are for a business owner.
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Don’t wanna, but eeek...didn’t read most of this, however, most basic business models for established businesses flow something like 30-35% raws/materials, 30-35% labor and expenses, 15% SG&A. Take half of the remaining to invest in CapEx. So the business owner is seeing $7.50-12.50 for every $100. Now obviously by industry that fluctuates some...as does legitimacy of the business. If he’s lucky and the business stands the test of time, he might see a 1.5-5x multiplier (more in some industries) on EBITDA when he sells.
 
John,
You are different than most people here. That’s fine. I enjoy hanging out/ wheeling with you and looking at what you’re building next.

Arguing is how you learn/grow. It’s okay to disagree. As long as you genuinely try to understand both sides.
Hopefully we can all learn from each other.

You have a different opinion on many things and it pisses some people off.

I think some people get pissed because you won’t admit they are right.
Others get pissed because they care about you don’t want you to make a poor decision.

Hear me out...

You are not entitled to your opinion. (Mad yet? LOL)

You are only entitled to what you can argue for.

The problem with “I’m entitled to my opinion” or what you said, “It's MY opinion, My views, my thoughts. YOU DON"T HAVE To like it, or agree or disagree.”
is that, many times, it’s used to shelter beliefs that should have been abandoned.
It becomes shorthand for “I can say or think whatever I like”

People use the phrase to lazily get out of arguments that are difficult, or are in a field that they are not familiar with.
They use the phrase to cover up their ignorance, in order to protect their misconstrued beliefs.
They will argue in circles for hours about something they don’t know, and justify the entire waste of time as an “opinion difference” in order to move on with their lives without changing their beliefs.

Once someone resorts to this, it’s obvious that they are not as knowledgeable in that field as the the other person(s) arguing.

I stole some of this stuff from other sources. So if it sounds too smart for me it’s cause I didn’t come up with it. Someone smarter than me did.

Also,
I’m all for it if you truly enjoy jumping from job to job. That’s not my style, but go for it.

Employers do not want to invest their $ in someone who jumps around.

New people start out low and move up.
Moving up is not all about skills.
It’s about showing that you are committed.
That’s why most companies make you wait 90 days to get benefits or a 401k opportunity.
Most companies don’t give raises until the first 12 months.

Stick with something buddy. I promise it will be better in the future.
 
marty79 said:
Your exactly right sir and I totally agree. It's an employers call to do as they will with their business, pay whomever they want what they want because it's their show. Yes I completely am aware of that, not arguing at all. I just stated without naming anyone that, in general, I don't agree with this way of business/relationship for anyone who runs a business. That doesn't mean anything though because like YOU stated, they are entitled to that and so am I to my requests and thoughts.

So, my perspective in business is this: always has been, always will be and nobody will change that!!
I lets say am self employed running my own business...just me ...one man team...all alone.
ok, my labor rate is $100 per hour (for sake of argument)
I do good, get known, get clients blah blah blah I grow and now I'm too busy to take in more work.
So, now I (employer) have 2 options: Stay at my current level turning away new work and maintain the path of business and finances I am making or Option 2: look into hiring help to grow the business

When I (or any Employer) hires someone(s), I am inviting that person into my business to represent my business, represent me (the owner), represent my work or product, produce my work or product, take care of my work/product, and do all this to the best of their sincere ability as my employee. This is what I and any "employer" wishes to do when looking/wanting to grow their business. It's for growth of their product or service, growth in finances and with hopes to maintain the growth to provide long term residual growing and providing good product/service while providing constant growing income for such business owner.
This is where I will never understand the worlds perspective on this part:
The Problem I see: Employers don't realize they aren't just "hiring"...they are inviting that person or persons to be a part of their team, part of their business and part of their work. The "employee" is doing the work for the business to grow, therefor the "employee" should be well paid from the hourly rate because they (employee) is doing the new work load which brings the business owner that much more income yet the "employee" is doing most of the work that they are to do but whose getting paid...a lot? not the guy doing the work...that's the problem. I don't thing it should be 50/50 by no means but c'mon, should an employer really take 75%/80% of that "employee's" hourly charge rate and the "employee" only keep %20 even though he/she is doing the actual work...how's that fair or right.

This is where everyone says "well, the business owner came up with the business/product/service!, so they have the right to charge/pay according to how they see fit"
That's bs: Doesn't matter that I or "employer" designed it or made it. Fact is when you hire people, that employer is "relying on the Employee" to grow their business ....PERIOD. Without "employees" NO BUSINESS would ever grow but remain at the level they were when they had all they could handle. That's why really smart business people and even books on business tells you "employees make your business"...hello duh common sense.
Take any business out there that has employees, any one of them: Tomorrow NOBODY shows up..business makes $0 dollars that day. If Owner could handle that stress and kicks it into high gear could salvage and produce what he/she could to keep it afloat downsizing to what they were when they first started and could handle on their own. Employees is the reason why ALL business thrive, become big, popular, wealthy, sustaining and mass producing products/services. Take away the employees and that said business becomes an empty building full of echoes.

This is why business owners get rich and richer while the employees are the ones making them rich.
Still don't believe me, fine here's the math:
Employer charges $100 per hour: Pays employee 1 - $20 per hour ($80 p/h floating?)
Pays employee 2 - $20 per hour ($80 p/h floating?)
employee 3 - $20 per hour ($80 p/h floating?)
Floating $240 PER HOUR ....whose getting that money, the Employer!!!!
So the Employer is making $240 PER HOUR for every hour his 3 employees work,
So that's almost $2000 a day, $9600 a week, $38000 a month, $460000 a year WOW THIS IS AFTER EMPLOYEES ARE PAID...yeah whose getting rich, not the employees.
while they doing all the work go home with lousy $20 p/h and then to make it even better, those Employers are the same ones that love to always say, "I ain't making a whole lot more than you guys at the end of the day." I have worked for couple small business owners who I could say legitimately didn't make a whole lot but that was because they didn't have a clue of how to run a business and were wasting money all over the place. Not all people are made to "run" a business, no problem with that, it's too bad those that can't won't admit it and run themselves into the ground.

And spare me the bs on "shop bills and fees"??!!! Serioulsy, a business the size of the example above (3 employees) is not spending that much money to where he/she couldn't afford to pay those employees better wages considering THEY are the ones making that business all the money and that Owner doesn't have to do any work. Even at lets say $150K a year to keep the small business running, numbers still don't add up. That employer makes a six figure income while those 3 employees are barely getting off food stamps.

So there you have it, my business perspective. It's MY opinion, My views, my thoughts. YOU DON"T HAVE To like it, or agree or disagree. BUT please keep the discussion to a grown up manner and talk sensibly if you're gonna talk.
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Van-go said:
New people start out low and move up.
Moving up is not all about skills.
It’s about showing that you are committed.
That’s why most companies make you wait 90 days to get benefits or a 401k opportunity.
Most companies don’t give raises until the first 12 months.

Stick with something buddy. I promise it will be better in the future.
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I can appreciate your thoughts, I do and all this is nothing new to me.
Problem is everyone thinks I'm stupid or "born yesterday" on a lot of this "business stuff" including past employers and uhhm (won't say it). I don't mind if an employer tells me when we talk finances after 3.5 months of what they are willing to pay/invest in me after showing them who i am and giving them everything I got. Where things go down hill
Van-go said:
Employers do not want to invest their $ in someone who jumps around.
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is when that employer feeds me bunch of crap like I'm stupid of "why" they can't or won't. )kinda hard for me to really say what I want without putting a specific name with the scenario(.
The only answer I keep getting from everyone is "hey dummy you forgot about business expenses"...(again like I was born yesterday). THERE IS SO MUCH MORE that I know for facts about what we're talking about but I can't get into those details without mentioning specific places I've worked which I don't cause I don't have the need to go there and put places/names out there.
Other big factor is "why would anyone believe me" over someone else who runs a backyard business in residential neighborhood no insurance/liability/business license (@Ron you love to bring that up) just because the other people are "more known", "more popular" or "they make legitimate money"....that's crap
People act like they judge fairly but they don't. I did the same "business in Boone" as ............................. but yet I'm the illegal stupid one, while the other who has big success is ok. (riiiiight) and you wonder why I constantly get defensive on topics, that's why
I also didn't give specific example of Employer to employee relations/pay scale which would DRASTICALLY change if I actually got into the DETAILS where this is in discussion but again, I'm not trying to be specific with names of places rather just gave a broad example (which I suppose will make it very hard to probe my point without getting into those specific details).
Van-go said:
It’s about showing that you are committed.
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very true, I give my commitment above and beyond but when an employer doesn't commit to me or care to invest in me, than they don't need me. They do just fine with hiring the regular shlobos off the street and continue with the overturn process most companies struggle with.
THIS is what gets me. Every company/business I've worked for in last 4 years (6 jobs, yikes) they complain so much "man good help is hard to find", "can't find nobody that's dedicated and wants to work", even "I need one or two employees that will really invest in this business that I can rely on and trust" blah blah blah
Then after 3-6months of showing them what I bring to their business (not just "skill), they tell me how "great" they think I am (blah blah) but I talk finances with them and ask for little better wage and what did I get from EVERY ONE OF THEM.....bunch of lies and bs of how they can't cause they make what I make and blah blah blah lies and talking to me like I'm stupid when clearly since I work for them, I can see and tell the real $ that they're bringing in, where it goes, and whose going home wealthy at the end of the day...(one stupid employer even shared with me "profits" one day....like really?? got all personal that morning, he was in "good" mood, then hours later was right back to "I make little money just like yall do"
SO yeah I know what goes on, I'm a lot smarter and aware of the earnings and spendings going on in pretty much every "small Private" business I've worked for.
 
Fabrik8 said:
Which is what makes it so damn confusing that you seem eager to bite the hand that feeds you after 4 months.
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and what the heck is this???? bite the hand??? excuse me. I work my tail off for my job and yes from the "review" said about me it shows. Then I ask for a fair pay for what I'm putting into the business and how invested I am and I get talked at like I'm stupid and born yesterday. That showed me no trust in that business to lie to my face and think I'm stupid that I would believe the crap that I was told of "why". So yeah, like I've said, I've proven myself that WHO I say I am as an employee is WHO I say I am and nothing less, but I expect that person/employer to invest in me like I do so much in them. When they don't, well it was nice to see how they show their appreciation for someone they thought/said was a "near top notch" employee.
 
marty79 said:
Tell you what bro, go pg2 of the build thread and read the review that was said about me as an employee....(employer words not mine) ..whose the deuch
Click to expand...

Let’s be careful
In the ASSumptions Johnny boy. I have actually held a job for more than a year. Actually, it’s been 18 straight years and I have progressed and been promoted in the career management field either with pay increases or Duty position (responsibility). What I do you couldn’t do. And before you say otherwise you’ve already said you couldn’t hack it. Although I have done what you are currently doing and left that job to do what I’m doing now after welding in a fab shop helped pay my way through college.
There is a douche in this conversation but believe you me it’s not I.
 
skyhighZJ said:
There is a douche in this conversation but believe you me it’s not I
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Hey easy there homie, ....give respect and you will have it back!! You disrespected me as a person and employee that you have no clue about so I just had to defend myself. So lesson here, respect others as you want to be respected. Why would I ever attempt to downtalk you when I don't have a clue of who you are? see my point, be a grown up and stop downplaying people you don't know to please the masses.
 
You put together Lego set of sorts. In tube.

You did not bend the steel,come up with the design etc

Show me some real skills and then I will listen to you bitch about money.
 
marty79 said:
Hey easy there homie, ....give respect and you will have it back!! You disrespected me as a person and employee that you have no clue about so I just had to defend myself. So lesson here, respect others as you want to be respected. Why would I ever attempt to downtalk you when I don't have a clue of who you are? see my point, be a grown up and stop downplaying people you don't know to please the masses.
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You disrespect yourself by bringing up the complaints and conversations that you do by assuming you’re worth in an organization long before it is established. Four months on a job site is nothing to an employer in the overall scheme of having someone that can put their faith in and invest their company’s money in. If you are devoted you need to take the words of your employer as motivation to keep it up and continue growing and improving. 6 months at the earliest unless previously discussed would be a good starting point to even think about gaining some sort of “benefit” from an employer whether that be a raise or something else.
 
As a small business owner, currently sitting in the office (before everyone else rolls in) I took a break and jumped on the forum and stumbled on this absolute bullsh*t. That's what it is. Absolute bullsh*t! @77GreenMachine said it best already so I won't repeat it. Any further comments would be belligerent and get me banned from the forum.

Oh, I almost forgot....as a small business owner I just sit around and drink coffee and surf the forum all day. I have it made :fuck-you:
 
i dont care what your pay rate is, no need. but at the 3-6 mark when you talk "finances" how much of a raise are you asking for? percentage of pay or dollar amount.
 
marty79 said:
I can appreciate your thoughts, I do and all this is nothing new to me.
Problem is everyone thinks I'm stupid or "born yesterday" on a lot of this "business stuff" including past employers and uhhm (won't say it). I don't mind if an employer tells me when we talk finances after 3.5 months of what they are willing to pay/invest in me after showing them who i am and giving them everything I got. Where things go down hill is when that employer feeds me bunch of crap like I'm stupid of "why" they can't or won't. )kinda hard for me to really say what I want without putting a specific name with the scenario(.
The only answer I keep getting from everyone is "hey dummy you forgot about business expenses"...(again like I was born yesterday). THERE IS SO MUCH MORE that I know for facts about what we're talking about but I can't get into those details without mentioning specific places I've worked which I don't cause I don't have the need to go there and put places/names out there.
Other big factor is "why would anyone believe me" over someone else who runs a backyard business in residential neighborhood no insurance/liability/business license (@Ron you love to bring that up) just because the other people are "more known", "more popular" or "they make legitimate money"....that's crap
People act like they judge fairly but they don't. I did the same "business in Boone" as ............................. but yet I'm the illegal stupid one, while the other who has big success is ok. (riiiiight) and you wonder why I constantly get defensive on topics, that's why
I also didn't give specific example of Employer to employee relations/pay scale which would DRASTICALLY change if I actually got into the DETAILS where this is in discussion but again, I'm not trying to be specific with names of places rather just gave a broad example (which I suppose will make it very hard to probe my point without getting into those specific details).

very true, I give my commitment above and beyond but when an employer doesn't commit to me or care to invest in me, than they don't need me. They do just fine with hiring the regular shlobos off the street and continue with the overturn process most companies struggle with.
THIS is what gets me. Every company/business I've worked for in last 4 years (6 jobs, yikes) they complain so much "man good help is hard to find", "can't find nobody that's dedicated and wants to work", even "I need one or two employees that will really invest in this business that I can rely on and trust" blah blah blah
Then after 3-6months of showing them what I bring to their business (not just "skill), they tell me how "great" they think I am (blah blah) but I talk finances with them and ask for little better wage and what did I get from EVERY ONE OF THEM.....bunch of lies and bs of how they can't cause they make what I make and blah blah blah lies and talking to me like I'm stupid when clearly since I work for them, I can see and tell the real $ that they're bringing in, where it goes, and whose going home wealthy at the end of the day...(one stupid employer even shared with me "profits" one day....like really?? got all personal that morning, he was in "good" mood, then hours later was right back to "I make little money just like yall do"
SO yeah I know what goes on, I'm a lot smarter and aware of the earnings and spendings going on in pretty much every "small Private" business I've worked for.
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I understand that it’s frustrating man. It’s hard to be told you are very skilled and not be compensated accordingly.

My wife worked at a place for about 3 years being undervalued and underpaid. She is/was a convention service manager (corporate meeting planner) for a very well known resort in Greensboro. She made about $15k less a year than what the average salary was in NC for her position.
She was told she was one of the best most organized planners they had ever had. Still no raise.
She made the decision to stick it out for a few years to gain the experience and to show that she could be committed to a company.

She just turned in her 2 week notice Wednesday. Her experience and commitment at 1 company is what got her the next job.

Does that make sense?
 
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You ever heard the saying “everyone can’t be wrong”?

Did it ever occur to you that if every employer is telling you the same thing when you want more money, that maybe you ain’t worth it? Of course you wouldn’t consider that.
Perhaps these employers don’t have the balls to tell you that you’re not as great as you think you are and you’re being paid exactly what you’re worth. I think maybe you sell yourself quite a bit better in an interview than you are able to deliver when it’s time.

And you said give respect to get it to @skyhighZJ. Respect is earned, and you had actually earned some respect from me but it’s all gone now, every bit of it.
 
Too bad you aren't an engineer. Want to see how real profits are made by a company. My billable rate to clients is crazy compared to what I am paid. You know how much bitching I do? ZERO. There is a reason I've been here for 13 years and in this industry for 17.

And as a former business owner, if I came on here and saw you bitching about what I paid you, we'd be having problems. Zero is a whole lot less than whatever you are getting paid now......
 
77GreenMachine said:
You ever heard the saying “everyone can’t be wrong”?

Did it ever occur to you that if every employer is telling you the same thing when you want more money, that maybe you ain’t worth it? Of course you wouldn’t consider that.
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"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole."
 
Hopefully third time is a charm.....Damn
 
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