Lots of interesting news today

DSM Turbos said:
Honest question. Maybe tough to answer though.

Are the people that often do mass shootings "criminals" or are they more in the mentally unstable bucket?

I tend to lean to the mentally unstable. To me a criminal will find a way to break the laws to find a gun when they need one, the mentally unstable person is often looking for an easy way out. Obtaining a gun illegally isn't very "easy" to a most of society. Hell, I have no idea where I would start if I wanted one
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I agree that by leaps and bounds, mentally unstable folks commit these particular crimes.
Buying a gun illegally? Meet somebody in a parking lot, give them cash for the gun they have and walk away. No paperwork, no nothing. I've done that with more forum members than I can count on 2 hands.
There's a market for that sort of thing on the criminal level too. I'm sure we all have a fringe acquaintence who knows somebody...
 
skyhighZJ said:
Has anyone seen or questioned where a kid of this age who lives at home with his mom came up with the money to buy those rifles?? Seems sketchy how he even could afford to buy them. I only say that because I have nothing on the aspect of preventing it besides I firmly believe teachers have no business being armed. They have to much other shit to worry about other than defending their wards.
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I think he worked at Wendy's. Maybe saved up his money since they probably pay $20/hr now a days.
 
Jody Treadway said:
As long as there are ever how many hundreds of millions of guns in the US, nothing, and I mean nothing, will stop the illegal sale, tranfer, whatever of them should they become illegal.
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Exactly why the US has a bit of a unique issue vs places like Europe, but if most people are obtaining the guns legally, maybe it would do something to stop the next person from walking in and buying a gun legally since they have no idea how to buy one illegally.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
While I somewhat agree with the statement that some of these events might be scuttled if getting the current weapon of choice wasn't available, I think the majority of them would not. We have seen where things like this has happened with incendiary devices, knives, pistols, etc.

@Bebop could give his more insight about what this might look like over in Europe. My guess is it happens more than we might think, but there is no value for the media to share news from a country they cannot control. If you hear about large attacks in a country where guns are illegal, that doesnt help the narrative.

I believe that many other cultures around the world seem to be more tribal, or place family/community in higher respect. There have been studies showing how the lifespan of many areas are longer, mostly due to the people being together, sharing meals, time, responsibility, happiness etc.
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I'll try to read all the discussion here before responding and putting my foot in my mouth. Political topics aren't my forte either.

As far as the last sentence, I would tend to agree, but not in Europe, or not as much as you may think. The US individualistic model is progressing very quickly over there. Asia and Africa absolutely.
 
drkelly said:
Thinking of all my teachers in the past
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Speaking of that... When I was in school there was NEVER a mentality that any one or multiples of us would ever THINK about overpowering the teacher (as mentioned before about taking a gun from an armed teacher)

An assault on a teacher was unheard of. Even verbally mouthing off to the teacher would get you several days at home.

Now? There are little to no consequences to slapping a teacher. Certainly NOTHING can be done for a kid simply using words. (verbally assaulting a teacher)

IMHO this is where we started to fail.
Ron said:
You dont wait until a dog is 200lbs to teach it not to bite. You teach it as a pup while its more easily shaped or controlled.
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Dr. Spoke screwed us, and it just got worse from there. Once we gave a child enough rope to control us #becausehurtfeelingsreports we lost all control.
 
paradisePWoffrd said:
there is no value for the media to share news from a country they cannot control.
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#fact
DSM Turbos said:
Are the people that often do mass shootings "criminals" or are they more in the mentally unstable bucket?

I tend to lean to the mentally unstable. To me a criminal will find a way to break the laws to find a gun when they need one, the mentally unstable person is often looking for an easy way out. Obtaining a gun illegally isn't very "easy" to a most of society. Hell, I have no idea where I would start if I wanted one
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This is an excellent point that helps distinguish situation and motive a lot more than many of the other things people tend to focus on. Most of these guys had no prior criminal record, so you can't address it like "regular criminals" which is a topic that is also not being handled well.
 
benXJ said:
Odd that every single headline doesn't mention his skin color. (I don't care, but it's telling)
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This is a really great point. We should probably ask black people what the answer is, since they are a hell of a lot less likely to commit this type of crime that anyone else. (joking, but not joking, because really)
 
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RatLabGuy said:
i'd really rather be more rational and scientific and explore what causes people to commit what you'd call the acts of evil, and address those.
Instead of a solution of pulling up weeds ore replying on weed killer, design you garden with plants, lighting etc that naturally inhibit them germinating in the first place.
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What is your definition of evil?
Lust. False Gods. Self Interest. Or murder, money, and sex? One line is the root. The other is the Tools of the evil.
I like your use of weeds and garden. The answer is in where the seeds are cast. What are the foundations of the planting? What is the fertilizer? The crop is always the same human. Will it yield Love or Hate?
Your science will always be beautiful. What happens when we can connect the physical to the spiritual? Ages long question I think.
@CasterTroy is spot on. Pure evil. It exist and will not cease on this plain of being. Everybody talks about the first murder. We talk about a rock and gun. We discuss the nature of death but rarely the dying and poisoning of the spirit before we get across the line of physical acts.

We keep fighting evil in our physical with debate and policy. We throw standards, set bars, and talk about council in hopes of a solution.

Spiritually people have been instruments. Literal note makers of a symphony played out to the tune of the inner heart of society. Love abounds but I am taught when we abandoned spiritual awareness (Specifically God) he will hide his presence from us. Not punishment but rather protection from, because he tolerates no wrong forever. He will endure it until the plan in place destroys it and draws his chosen near. So why do we have an abundance of evil? We have usurped God for self.


Maybe it's the Covid and fever that pulls me to examine from this constant perspective. Maybe it's the genuine helpless feeling of wellness on this earth. Maybe it's the reality we all get reminded of when we bleed. But inside we are so much more spiritually. It is what comprises our being. We as a nation have abandoned our most prestigious self. Our souls.
 
DSM Turbos said:
It goes a lot to Ron post I think it was, what happens when that teacher is overtaken by a strong student before they can pull the gun out, then takes the weapon shoots the teacher and others in the school, and they didn't have a weapon before that. I think that is the biggest fear many have, and why many are against it.
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The point of concealed carry is that nobody knows you have it until you produce it when you need it. If they sucker punch you and knock you out, they will most likely not search you for a gun before other students start yelling, etc. Commotion draws attention and another teacher or SRO officer should be alert to it by that point.

At my church, there are probably a dozen people in the congregation that are carrying on any given Sunday. You will never know who and where they are, but they are there. We have been fortunate to never have an incident at our church, but we also have a security team that are disguised as greeters and are the friendliest people you will ever meet if you are a newcomer to our church. That's the best way to tell if someone is up to no good.
 
CasterTroy said:
Speaking of that... When I was in school there was NEVER a mentality that any one or multiples of us would ever THINK about overpowering the teacher (as mentioned before about taking a gun from an armed teacher)

An assault on a teacher was unheard of. Even verbally mouthing off to the teacher would get you several days at home.

Now? There are little to no consequences to slapping a teacher. Certainly NOTHING can be done for a kid simply using words. (verbally assaulting a teacher)

IMHO this is where we started to fail.
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This is what I'm referring to, in saying get to the nature of what causes people to do it. Don't just cast it as "The yare evil."
What has changed, even progressively, that this kind of act is even in the realm of ideas that one might do? What allowed that change to happen? If we focus on that and address it, then the symptoms go away along with the actual cause.

And I fully agree that some part of it is the lack of consequences
 
RatLabGuy said:
This is what I'm referring to, in saying get to the nature of what causes people to do it. Don't just cast it as "The yare evil."
What has changed, even progressively, that this kind of act is even in the realm of ideas that one might do? What allowed that change to happen? If we focus on that and address it, then the symptoms go away along with the actual cause.

And I fully agree that some part of it is the lack of consequences
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The government took the power away from the teachers and principal to properly control the students, and the students know it.
 
I'm not an Elon Musk fanboy, but...

www.thestreet.com

Elon Musk Chooses Sides on Gun Control Debate - TheStreet

The billionaire and CEO of Tesla has become very political in recent months.
www.thestreet.com www.thestreet.com

"Regarding recent events, the shooters are obviously doing this to generate the most amount of attention possible. Why is the media doing exactly what the mass murderers want?” Musk asked.

I've said the same thing before about these school shootings.
 
ManglerYJ said:
The point of concealed carry is that nobody knows you have it until you produce it when you need it. If they sucker punch you and knock you out, they will most likely not search you for a gun before other students start yelling, etc. Commotion draws attention and another teacher or SRO officer should be alert to it by that point.

At my church, there are probably a dozen people in the congregation that are carrying on any given Sunday. You will never know who and where they are, but they are there. We have been fortunate to never have an incident at our church, but we also have a security team that are disguised as greeters and are the friendliest people you will ever meet if you are a newcomer to our church. That's the best way to tell if someone is up to no good.
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My daughter's elementary school has 1 male on the whole staff. 95% of the teachers are probably 130 lbs and not one of them is over 5'5".
Stereotyping, yes... but what % of them do you think are prepared for properly concealing a firearm?

This idea has been researched pretty extensively. There was a discussion about it with somebody on NPR this morning who had done said research. Only a tiny fraction of teachers are even interested in the idea of being armed. And only a small % of those would actually be qualified. It sounds like a great idea on the surface, but once you dig into the practicalities of it, the added potential danger and difficulties to actually implement greatly outweighs the potential help.
Is the point actual protection, of the idea/threat of protection as a deterrence? Then just put up signs saying "staff may be armed" and stop there.
 
RatLabGuy said:
My daughter's elementary school has 1 male on the whole staff. 95% of the teachers are probably 130 lbs and not one of them is over 5'5".
Stereotyping, yes... but what % of them do you think are prepared for properly concealing a firearm?

This idea has been researched pretty extensively. There was a discussion about it with somebody on NPR this morning who had done said research. Only a tiny fraction of teachers are even interested in the idea of being armed. And only a small % of those would actually be qualified. It sounds like a great idea on the surface, but once you dig into the practicalities of it, the added potential danger and difficulties to actually implement greatly outweighs the potential help.
Is the point actual protection, of the idea/threat of protection as a deterrence? Then just put up signs saying "staff may be armed" and stop there.
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Why not have a group of armed officers ( think white house security. all those shit heads certainly aren't any more important than our nations' children) at every school, armed, trained, ready to go. In stead of having active shooter drills and giving the blue print to a possible student who is thinking of acting on something, have the kids learn what they can do inside their own classroom. Have tools that help them shield themselves, tools that can deter an active shooter, train these teachers and pay them more. When new schools are built, have things put into place that can help deter these active shooters away or allow escape routes or safety rooms. I am just thinking off the top of my head, but it seems we are going to have to start thinking about these kinds of things.
 
drkelly said:
I don't think armed teachers and signs out front about armed teachers would prevent the crazy mass shooters from coming to schools. It might reduce the number of kids killed but only if enough of the teachers are carrying to make a difference. Thinking of all my teachers in the past, and my son's teachers today, I can think of only one who would have probably willingly carried a gun. I don't think any of the killers are thinking they will go kill a bunch of kids, then leave and get away with it.
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The rest of my post explained that. Stone cold crazy school shooters will not care, you are correct. But, as in the case of the Oxford, Michigan shooter, he was hoping to shoot and sneak away before getting captured by police. He had escaped the building on foot because he blended in with his surroundings and was off campus before anyone knew it. Not crazy, but rational and calculating also with misplaced anger and a screwed up sense of power derived from having access to a gun with nobody telling him how to deal with things appropriately.

My kids have grown up around guns and shooting guns with us. They were told to never point it at anything living unless they planned to eat it or if they were in fear for their life (or both). They know the sanctity of life and the permanence of death. They have dealt with bullies and know what it's like to be picked on and how to stand up for one's self without taking drastic action, but they also know what the ramifications are for drastic action when it is needed.
 
Cherokeekid88 said:
Why not have a group of armed officers ( think white house security. all those shit heads certainly aren't any more important than our nations' children) at every school, armed, trained, ready to go. In stead of having active shooter drills and giving the blue print to a possible student who is thinking of acting on something, have the kids learn what they can do inside their own classroom. Have tools that help them shield themselves, tools that can deter an active shooter, train these teachers and pay them more. When new schools are built, have things put into place that can help deter these active shooters away or allow escape routes or safety rooms. I am just thinking off the top of my head, but it seems we are going to have to start thinking about these kinds of things.
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And where does that money come from?
Most schools now are so underfunded that teachers are bringing in their own supplies, they ask parents to provide everything etc, teachers are woefully underpaid and buildings are made to the very bare bones spec affordable. Where is the money for this going to magically come from?

Also... active shooter drills are a real thing now already.
 
Cherokeekid88 said:
Why not have a group of armed officers ( think white house security. all those shit heads certainly aren't any more important than our nations' children) at every school, armed, trained, ready to go. In stead of having active shooter drills and giving the blue print to a possible student who is thinking of acting on something, have the kids learn what they can do inside their own classroom. Have tools that help them shield themselves, tools that can deter an active shooter, train these teachers and pay them more. When new schools are built, have things put into place that can help deter these active shooters away or allow escape routes or safety rooms. I am just thinking off the top of my head, but it seems we are going to have to start thinking about these kinds of things.
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There are 2,557 public schools in NC.
Lets say you put 4 armed guards at each.
Pay them $60k each so their loaded costs average $120k/ea/yr.
or
$480k/school per year
or
$1,227,360,000 PER YEAR.
NC has about $5.1M tax payers which would cost about $250 extra per person per year..and we havent accounted for admin costs, equipment costs etc.
 
RatLabGuy said:
My daughter's elementary school has 1 male on the whole staff. 95% of the teachers are probably 130 lbs and not one of them is over 5'5".
Stereotyping, yes... but what % of them do you think are prepared for properly concealing a firearm?

This idea has been researched pretty extensively. There was a discussion about it with somebody on NPR this morning who had done said research. Only a tiny fraction of teachers are even interested in the idea of being armed. And only a small % of those would actually be qualified. It sounds like a great idea on the surface, but once you dig into the practicalities of it, the added potential danger and difficulties to actually implement greatly outweighs the potential help.
Is the point actual protection, of the idea/threat of protection as a deterrence? Then just put up signs saying "staff may be armed" and stop there.
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The threat is only legitimate if you don't hamstring the teachers by making it a "gun free zone" which schools are required to be by law. If you allow CCW carriers to carry on school premises and then post the sign, there are actual teeth to the threat, not just empty words. The idea here is to make it so a rational person would think twice about coming to a school with ill intentions. Just like how a lock only keeps honest people out. A thief is going to break in and steal no matter what you got protecting it. All that stuff does is slow them down enough for them to get caught, either by law enforcement or someone willing to "encourage" them to leave - whether it's on their own or in a body bag.
 
ManglerYJ said:
The threat is only legitimate if you don't hamstring the teachers by making it a "gun free zone" which schools are required to be by law. If you allow CCW carriers to carry on school premises and then post the sign, there are actual teeth to the threat, not just empty words. The idea here is to make it so a rational person would think twice about coming to a school with ill intentions. Just like how a lock only keeps honest people out. A thief is going to break in and steal no matter what you got protecting it. All that stuff does is slow them down enough for them to get caught, either by law enforcement or someone willing to "encourage" them to leave - whether it's on their own or in a body bag.
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1 - so who are the CCWs in a school like ours? There are only a handful of people even physically capable of it, and of those it's only a tiny probability any actually wants to OR would really be qualified.
2 - why are you referring to the choices that a rational person would make? No rational person is walking into schools blazing kids.
 
Cherokeekid88 said:
Why not have a group of armed officers ( think white house security. all those shit heads certainly aren't any more important than our nations' children) at every school, armed, trained, ready to go. In stead of having active shooter drills and giving the blue print to a possible student who is thinking of acting on something, have the kids learn what they can do inside their own classroom. Have tools that help them shield themselves, tools that can deter an active shooter, train these teachers and pay them more. When new schools are built, have things put into place that can help deter these active shooters away or allow escape routes or safety rooms. I am just thinking off the top of my head, but it seems we are going to have to start thinking about these kinds of things.
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They can't even afford to keep the crossing guard all year long at our kids school. People will bitch if we raise taxes, people want less taxes. How good is that going to go over? I don't want my kid even having to do active shooter drills, that alone is scary as hell.
ManglerYJ said:
The threat is only legitimate if you don't hamstring the teachers by making it a "gun free zone" which schools are required to be by law. If you allow CCW carriers to carry on school premises and then post the sign, there are actual teeth to the threat, not just empty words. The idea here is to make it so a rational person would think twice about coming to a school with ill intentions. Just like how a lock only keeps honest people out. A thief is going to break in and steal no matter what you got protecting it. All that stuff does is slow them down enough for them to get caught, either by law enforcement or someone willing to "encourage" them to leave - whether it's on their own or in a body bag.
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So post the sign, then kids know that if they knock down a teacher they may find a gun. Just playing devils advocate here, if somebody knocks down a teacher and is already doing that, they might just start looking for a gun too.

Rational people aren't going into schools with ill intentions. I doubt anybody with rational thinking is doing this stuff.

RatLabGuy said:
1 - so who are the CCWs in a school like ours? There are only a handful of people even physically capable of it, and of those it's only a tiny probability any actually wants to OR would really be qualified.
2 - why are you referring to the choices that a rational person would make? No rational person is walking into schools blazing kids.
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The teacher is going to hold a little ole 22 hidden on their person while the person comes in with an AR15
 
Well I went to a country school with ffa and ag classes. I know several of the teachers and coaches that still work there. They are all avid hunters and carry on the weekends. I don't care if they had to keep them locked up in their office, it would be an option. I'd rather have them be able to access them quickly being on-site. Than just call 911 and hope for the best. Also who would be more familiar with the layout of the school?
 
My input is probably limited on this particular topic since I've never been personally confronted to school shootings, so I'll try to stay general.

I think this whole thing is rooted in the lack of accountability of the people in general. And our society isn't moving towards putting more accountability towards the people, rather take it away from them and replace it with "things" making the decisions for them. In the process, it reduces individual liberties as "the system" knows better than "the individual".

America is less further along this process compared to Europe, and this is one of its main attracts to me. I enjoy the individual freedoms that being here provides me.

I have no input on how to make this better for your children (I don't have any of my own) as I don't believe that there is a general push from society (whether it's the masses or the political leadership) to actually change anything. Change is complicated, hard to deal with and requires sacrifices and a serious self-assessment with open-mind.

Call me jaded, but I don't see anybody in this country (including myself) being really ready for that.

Also, I'd like to point out that @Jody Treadway is really good at putting words on concepts that I generally agree with.
 
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